Would a Zombie ...
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Would a Zombie ...
Would a zombie walk across an invisible bridge?
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Funny you should mention that. I've had some conversations about zombies and common sense.
If a zombie was on one side of a pit, and living creatures on the other, would the zombie fall into the pit?
If a zombie was flooing someone and that person went out a door, would the zombie be able to follow?
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If a zombie was on one side of a pit, and living creatures on the other, would the zombie fall into the pit?
If a zombie was flooing someone and that person went out a door, would the zombie be able to follow?
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Depends on which zombie from which movie you use.
The standard D&D zombie? No, they would have no power to figure out something is there. Then again, in 3E Undead are immune to illusions, so would see the actual bridge, since Invisibility is an illusion spell.
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The standard D&D zombie? No, they would have no power to figure out something is there. Then again, in 3E Undead are immune to illusions, so would see the actual bridge, since Invisibility is an illusion spell.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
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Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
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[editing because I misread the question]
Zombies are mindless, per the description. Therefore, they would not think. They are pure instinct. They see food. They want food. They try to get food. However, all creatures, even those deemed "mindless" have self-preservation (a good way to think of this is to compare a zombie to a cockroach) -- the zombie would not attempt to cross something that it could not cross (such as entering a ring of fire, for example) unless it was commanded to do so. This means that, unless the zombie somehow figured out the bridge was real (and not just an illusion), such as being pushed onto it, it would not cross because it sees no way of doing it.
There is a difference in an invisible bridge and an illusory bridge -- if the bridge does not exist, but is visible, the zombie would try to cross it, fail, and fall. It being invisible, but real, means the zombie needs "reassurance" that it can cross-- it will not try otherwise.
And, Treebore -- immunities apply when the creature is the target, not when an area / item is. An irom golem is immune to most spells, but if you cast an earthquake spell at the ground, it could still get sucked in. So, a general immunity to illusions (even if undead in C&C had them, which they don't) would not mean the zombie can see through the illusion, which is also assuming it is an illusion-- what it is was cast by a wizard? Maybe wizard spells are not illusory but transmutation (that is, rather than conceal or fake its appearance, it actually changes the structure to be translucent or even extraplanar?)
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Serl's Corner
Zombies are mindless, per the description. Therefore, they would not think. They are pure instinct. They see food. They want food. They try to get food. However, all creatures, even those deemed "mindless" have self-preservation (a good way to think of this is to compare a zombie to a cockroach) -- the zombie would not attempt to cross something that it could not cross (such as entering a ring of fire, for example) unless it was commanded to do so. This means that, unless the zombie somehow figured out the bridge was real (and not just an illusion), such as being pushed onto it, it would not cross because it sees no way of doing it.
There is a difference in an invisible bridge and an illusory bridge -- if the bridge does not exist, but is visible, the zombie would try to cross it, fail, and fall. It being invisible, but real, means the zombie needs "reassurance" that it can cross-- it will not try otherwise.
And, Treebore -- immunities apply when the creature is the target, not when an area / item is. An irom golem is immune to most spells, but if you cast an earthquake spell at the ground, it could still get sucked in. So, a general immunity to illusions (even if undead in C&C had them, which they don't) would not mean the zombie can see through the illusion, which is also assuming it is an illusion-- what it is was cast by a wizard? Maybe wizard spells are not illusory but transmutation (that is, rather than conceal or fake its appearance, it actually changes the structure to be translucent or even extraplanar?)
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Who's writing this chapter of the CKG, Steve? LOL
Tricky question, to be sure. I think Serl's explanations get my vote.
Tricky question, to be sure. I think Serl's explanations get my vote.
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Re: Would a Zombie ...
Troll Lord wrote:
Would a zombie walk across an invisible bridge?
Yes, if so instructed by the magic-user or cleric that animated them.
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Would it make any difference if the bridge were magical and visible?
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Relaxo wrote:
Who's writing this chapter of the CKG, Steve? LOL
Tricky question, to be sure. I think Serl's explanations get my vote.
I have a thought process going on here and curious what others think. I already know the answer so far as I am concerned.
Steve
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If the bridge is visible, then yes, the zombie would try to cross it -- whether it is magical or not is unimportant, unless it being there is an effect of magic and it truly does not exist, at which point the zombie will try to cross, and fail, because the bridge is not real. The same would happen to anything that attempted to cross a non-existent bridge... you see rainbows, but if you tried to slide down one, how far would you get? To the earth's surface, in one fall.
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I would think not since invisibility is both a magic abuser and illusionist spell and doesn't necessarily mean the bridge is cloaked in an illusion so much as light is diverted, manipulated, bent, etc. in such a way that it is not reflected back to the eye of the observer (I know...quit injecting science into magic.)
So the zombie does not see the bridge and would not seek to cross it. If the bridge were illusionary the arguement could be made either way, though for me, basic undead such as skeletons or zombies have no cognitive ability upon which the power of suggestion (illusion) could work. More intelligent undead however are a different story.
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So the zombie does not see the bridge and would not seek to cross it. If the bridge were illusionary the arguement could be made either way, though for me, basic undead such as skeletons or zombies have no cognitive ability upon which the power of suggestion (illusion) could work. More intelligent undead however are a different story.
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Troll Lord wrote:
I have a thought process going on here and curious what others think. I already know the answer so far as I am concerned.
Steve
I figured as much, but can't resist the opportunity to bust balls.
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Googleplex makes a point, if the bridge is illusinary, one would need cognitive function in order to perceive it, so IMO, a zombie would not cross it b/c it would perceive no bridge.
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No, of course not. Zombies cannot see the bridge if it is invisible. How does he (it) even know it is there? Do zombies march en masse over cliffs thinking, "Maybe there is a bridge heeeeeeeerrrrreeee..... guess not." But I agree with Rhu, if told by its creator, "Walk across this chasm to the other side," they will.
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I don't agree that zombies have a self-preservation instinct. They are dead. What the hell do they care, even instinctually?
Having said that, they have very limited perception. They must, in order to seek prey.
My feeling is that if a zombie sees prey, it goes after it, chasm, invisible bridge, visible bridge, wall of fire, whatever. It simply doesn't care. It sees living flesh that it wants to rend, and that's all there is to it. The existence of a viable path to get to that flesh does not matter. They will try despite walls, doors, chasms, barriers of any kind. They just keep coming.
Sure, it makes them fairly easy to thwart, but they don't quit, either. This is why they are terrifying.
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Having said that, they have very limited perception. They must, in order to seek prey.
My feeling is that if a zombie sees prey, it goes after it, chasm, invisible bridge, visible bridge, wall of fire, whatever. It simply doesn't care. It sees living flesh that it wants to rend, and that's all there is to it. The existence of a viable path to get to that flesh does not matter. They will try despite walls, doors, chasms, barriers of any kind. They just keep coming.
Sure, it makes them fairly easy to thwart, but they don't quit, either. This is why they are terrifying.
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Sooo, we can't even agree on whether or not zombies would cross an invisible bridge? hahaha
This is why C&C rocks!
Steve
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This is why C&C rocks!
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Just let me add a little story... We were playing C&C just this weekend at Breakdaddy's palatial estate. I was playing a M/U. The Cleric in the party had created a zombie from one of the many corpses in our wake. At one point, we came upon an obvious trappy-like situation. We send in the zombie to see what is up. A vision of a dragon appears in the hallway and breathes fire on the zombie. The zombie neither reacts or becomes injured. In fact, he walks through as if nothing happens. So, with my 18 INT I figure it out and tell the party, "Merely an illusion. Let's go!" and I take the lead.
Todd: The vision appears and breathes fire on you. Make a save.
Me: But it's just an illusion...
Todd: Yep. Make a save.
Me: (picking up dice) Do I get a bonus or anything?
Todd: Not really.
Me: (rolls a 4) uh...
Todd: You take 16 points of damage.
Me: But... 18 INT... illusion...
Todd: Next?
Illusions am real.
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Todd: The vision appears and breathes fire on you. Make a save.
Me: But it's just an illusion...
Todd: Yep. Make a save.
Me: (picking up dice) Do I get a bonus or anything?
Todd: Not really.
Me: (rolls a 4) uh...
Todd: You take 16 points of damage.
Me: But... 18 INT... illusion...
Todd: Next?
Illusions am real.
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That's just busted.
(and being a Todd...I deny any and all involvement with said situation! )
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(and being a Todd...I deny any and all involvement with said situation! )
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AGNKim wrote:
Just let me add a little story... We were playing C&C just this weekend at Breakdaddy's palatial estate. I was playing a M/U. The Cleric in the party had created a zombie from one of the many corpses in our wake. At one point, we came upon an obvious trappy-like situation. We send in the zombie to see what is up. A vision of a dragon appears in the hallway and breathes fire on the zombie. The zombie neither reacts or becomes injured. In fact, he walks through as if nothing happens. So, with my 18 INT I figure it out and tell the party, "Merely an illusion. Let's go!" and I take the lead.
Todd: The vision appears and breathes fire on you. Make a save.
Me: But it's just an illusion...
Todd: Yep. Make a save.
Me: (picking up dice) Do I get a bonus or anything?
Todd: Not really.
Me: (rolls a 4) uh...
Todd: You take 16 points of damage.
Me: But... 18 INT... illusion...
Todd: Next?
Illusions am real.
Awesome! Any more morsals of CK dodgery, post em up Kim
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They like fresh flesh. Dead meat is too much like cannibilism.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.
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"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."
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Personaly, I wouldn't let some silly invisible bridge come between me and a well balanced meal. But then again, I'm not your average walking corpse.
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Re: Would a Zombie ...
This thread is fantastic and everyone should enjoy it 13 years later. So say I.
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Re: Would a Zombie ...
Excerpts from my Necrology of the Undead Article in Domesday:
"Corporeal Undead: (Skeletons, Zombies, Ghouls, and their mindless ilk)
Basically what we have with these basic undead is a body in various states of heavy decomposition or, in the skeleton’s case, merely a bunch of dry bones wandering about. That any organs are dried up or rotting meat in those undead not skeletal, in which case they do not even have any organs. As such normal bodily functions related to the senses of taste, smell, sight, hearing, and touch no longer function, nor is there any brain function to even interpret such signals if they were present. So how do such undead interact with the world around them?"
"I believe the key is the imprisoned soul. The magic keys to, or more correctly stated, imprints the sense of hearing and sight from the soul itself so that the necromancer and their slave have a means of interacting with each other that the enslaved soul can recognize since it has no cognitive function or sentience of its own. This would allow the undead to both see and hear normally in all respects but fails to address how it sees in darkness. Again we go to the magic of the necromancer. Since the sense of sight is created by magic which has no concept of light or darkness the magic does one of two things. 1) The magic bypasses the issue simply allowing the undead to see in contrasts of grey (much like black and white television for those old enough to remember watching it that way); 2) The magic radiates around the undead or in the range of what its peripheral vision was in life and constructs the image ‘seen’ by the undead much like lidar or ultrasound does in company with three-dimensional holograms.
Of the two, the former seems more likely and would allow almost normal sensory perception. In the case of illusions, those illusions that did not require interpretation by an active brain or mental facilities such as patterns and phantasms, would be registered by the undead. Also, this would mean that invisibility is effective against them also outside of the invisibility to undead spell. If option two is assumed, then the magic sees only the physical reality of what surrounds the undead, ignoring anything not physically present thus rendering any illusion spell not creating a tangible physical presence or attempting to mask a physical presence useless. Since the magic involved is mimicking a sense of sight then it is safe to assume that this pseudo-sense is limited to the room or hallway being occupied within normal or reasonable limits as determined by the game master."
"Corporeal Undead: (Skeletons, Zombies, Ghouls, and their mindless ilk)
Basically what we have with these basic undead is a body in various states of heavy decomposition or, in the skeleton’s case, merely a bunch of dry bones wandering about. That any organs are dried up or rotting meat in those undead not skeletal, in which case they do not even have any organs. As such normal bodily functions related to the senses of taste, smell, sight, hearing, and touch no longer function, nor is there any brain function to even interpret such signals if they were present. So how do such undead interact with the world around them?"
"I believe the key is the imprisoned soul. The magic keys to, or more correctly stated, imprints the sense of hearing and sight from the soul itself so that the necromancer and their slave have a means of interacting with each other that the enslaved soul can recognize since it has no cognitive function or sentience of its own. This would allow the undead to both see and hear normally in all respects but fails to address how it sees in darkness. Again we go to the magic of the necromancer. Since the sense of sight is created by magic which has no concept of light or darkness the magic does one of two things. 1) The magic bypasses the issue simply allowing the undead to see in contrasts of grey (much like black and white television for those old enough to remember watching it that way); 2) The magic radiates around the undead or in the range of what its peripheral vision was in life and constructs the image ‘seen’ by the undead much like lidar or ultrasound does in company with three-dimensional holograms.
Of the two, the former seems more likely and would allow almost normal sensory perception. In the case of illusions, those illusions that did not require interpretation by an active brain or mental facilities such as patterns and phantasms, would be registered by the undead. Also, this would mean that invisibility is effective against them also outside of the invisibility to undead spell. If option two is assumed, then the magic sees only the physical reality of what surrounds the undead, ignoring anything not physically present thus rendering any illusion spell not creating a tangible physical presence or attempting to mask a physical presence useless. Since the magic involved is mimicking a sense of sight then it is safe to assume that this pseudo-sense is limited to the room or hallway being occupied within normal or reasonable limits as determined by the game master."
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
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"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."
Re: Would a Zombie ...
If someone was in front of them on it, yes.
Re: Would a Zombie ...
Troll Lord wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:54 pmWould a zombie walk across an invisible bridge?
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if it saw another zombie cross first.