DaveyB wrote:
Yeah, speaking of charm, reminds me of when we went through Red Hand of Doom and our main tank got charmed by one of Azur Kull's "mindbender" underlings with the cleric fresh out of spells and the wizard with nothing to break an enchantment. Needless to say, things didn't end pretty. It wasn't a TPK, but it was close.
That is a large part of why Ravenloft is so deadly. 4th to 7th level characters, unless most or all are elves and/or Paladins, don't have a whole lot of ability to prevent or negate charms in a 24 hour period. Protection from Evil is not a very popular spell, but should be in Ravenloft.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Hmmm. I'd say Ravenloft is a perfect example of a module where PCs *must* know when to fight and when to run away (even if this means abandoning a party member or two). Strahd's tough, but if you can skip around him 'till you get the sword then it's much easier.
I never did like the killer mist bit though; too railroady.
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
Definitely I6: Ravenloft. Wiped out half a party of 6 at a Convention several years back when one person pulled a lever and activated the elevator - result: squished Mage (elevator dropped on him IIRC), dead Halfling Thief and Dwarf Fighter from poisonous spiders.......which is funny that the Thief and Fighter had the best Poison saves. They never made it to see Strahd, which would have been an interesting fight as the Paladin would have had the Sunsword, since the missing half was where Strahd was.
Other than that, gonna have to go with the crowd and say S1: Tomb of Horrors and T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil.
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Rappan Athuk (in any incarnation). I'm surprised there aren't more votes for this, but may be not as many people have run it since it's a 3rd party module. It's been chewing up and spitting out PCs left and right in my campaign. One poor player is on his fifth PC at this point. I think we have one original PC left, but I'm not sure.
Thankfully, my players knew what they were getting into and have been good sports about it.
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TheFrost wrote:
Rappan Athuk (in any incarnation). I'm surprised there aren't more votes for this, but may be not as many people have run it since it's a 3rd party module. It's been chewing up and spitting out PCs left and right in my campaign. One poor player is on his fifth PC at this point. I think we have one original PC left, but I'm not sure.
Thankfully, my players knew what they were getting into and have been good sports about it.
I think most of us have been focusing on the classic modules when discussing this thread. But, I agree, Rappan Athuk is one humdinger of a meat grinder. It's huge and full of nasty buggers to say the least. Since it was mostly, if not all, written in 1ed/2ed and converted to 3ed, it's not too difficult to convert for C&C play. I would recommended it - one tough dungeon crawl.
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!
Deogolf wrote:
I think most of us have been focusing on the classic modules when discussing this thread. But, I agree, Rappan Athuk is one humdinger of a meat grinder. It's huge and full of nasty buggers to say the least. Since it was mostly, if not all, written in 1ed/2ed and converted to 3ed, it's not too difficult to convert for C&C play. I would recommended it - one tough dungeon crawl.
I've always thought rappan atthuk was too killer but i never thought to convert to cnc. I think this calls for me to do some work this weekend Thanks Deogolf.
We tried to convert g 1-3 against the giants and it became a TPK with 3.5 dnd. At that moment i lost all interest in 3.5. thank goodness i found cnc shortly after.
To pick two good examples, Rappan Athuk and Tomb of Horrors are both "killer" dungeons but have tremendously different reasons as to why.
It could be that some see ToH as the quintessential killer dungeon - the standard by which all others are judged. In that case, Rappan Athuk doesn't really compare. That might be why it hasn't been mentioned more.
Rappan Athuk certainly requires smart play, but it's not the type of dungeon where every move could be your last. It's a grinder. It requires a constant level of awareness and planning to use resources wisely. Other dungeons that might fall into this category include ToEE, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, and the grand master of all grinder dungeons - Castle Zagyg. The hallmark of this dungeon seems to be strategic planning. While tactical decisions can be incredibly important, particularly in certain encounter areas, the longevity of the party seems to depend more on their ability to make wise strategic decisions.
Tomb of Horrors maintains a different type of intensity, where each *footstep* could be the character's last. This is a dungeon that emphasizes tactical smarts over strategic decision-making. Naturally, strategy is still very important, but ToH seems to emphasize that each and every decision, regardless of how small, may be important. This is more of a tactical point of view.
Given that, here's my list, by category:
Strategic "Grinder" Dungeons:
1) Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth - this one is particularly difficult both because of the nature of the creatures within, but also because of the remoteness of the location. There's no going back to town to rest up.
2) Temple of Elemental Evil - Once inside, it's difficult to leave to fight another day. The nature of the temple's defenses would require the honest DM to adjust to a known PC incursion. PCs can sneak around for a while, but there's always going to be a time when the ruse is up. At that point, the PCs are in it the rest of the way, or they may find the defenses too strong to overcome once they return.
3) Rappan Athuk - the remoteness of the location is a factor, as is the disjointed nature of the sections. It is difficult to prepare for a single threat - parties must be prepared to face almost anything. Resource management is a must, especially when venturing deeper into the complex.
Honorable Mention: Hall of Many Panes. Until Castle Zagyg comes out, there's no way to include it on the list.
Tactical "Breathe Wrong and Die" Dungeons:
1) Tomb of Horrors - how many parties have died in that first corridor?
2) Necropolis - the final tomb is worthy of sharing the same ground with ToH. It's very nasty, and arguably more dangerous than ToH. The rest of the module is more strategic in focus, which is why Necropolis isn't tied for 1st place.
3) Castle Amber - Anything goes, and it will go on you.
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