Siege w/o Challenge Ratings

[paladinn]

There has been a discussion on another forum about adapting C&C/Siege to be more like AD&D. The main part of this was to drop CR from Siege rolls. Obviously this would make saves and such far easier; but would they be Too easy? High-level saves have been one of the main criticisms of C&C since I've been involved.

So pondering all this.. If Siege rolls, especially Saves, didn't have a CL, a save vs a young copper dragon's breath and an ancient gold dragon's breath would have the same "difficulty"? Why doesn't that seem right to me? Were AD&D saves that "easy"?

Which saves, ability checks, etc. would still factor in a CL?

Assuming that the premise is right, all that "may" be necessary to simulate an AD&D experience would be to change BAB to more match what was in AD&D?

Just wrapping my head around it.

[Persimmon]

Have you never played pre-WOTC D&D? It's pretty simple. Your saves get better as you level up. Though the DM could impose situational modifiers, the level of the foe is generally irrelevant. So whether it's a hatchling or an ancient dragon, your save is just based on your level. What this means, is that saves in general are far easier for higher level characters, thus allowing them much greater chance for survival in general. As an example, see below, from Advanced Labyrinth Lord:

FIGHTER, PALADIN, and RANGER SAVING THROWS
Breath Attacks Poison or Petrify Death or Paralyze Wands Spells or Spell-like Devices
0 Human 17 14 16 15 18
1-3 15 12 14 13 16
4-6 13 10 12 11 14
7-9 9 8 10 9 12
10-12 7 6 8 7 10
13-15 5 4 6 5 8
16-18 4 4 5 4 7
19+ 4 3 4 3 6

The main question is, if this it what you're wanting from saves, why bother playing C&C when you can play AD&D or any of various retro-clones? If you want a tougher game at higher levels, at least from the perspective of saves versus higher level foes, then go with C&C.

P.S.--Can't seem to get the table to format properly. Read from left to right and it makes sense.

[paladinn]

Have you never played pre-WOTC D&D? It's pretty simple. Your saves get better as you level up. Though the DM could impose situational modifiers, the level of the foe is generally irrelevant. So whether it's a hatchling or an ancient dragon, your save is just based on your level. What this means, is that saves in general are far easier for higher level characters, thus allowing them much greater chance for survival in general. As an example, see below, from Advanced Labyrinth Lord:

FIGHTER, PALADIN, and RANGER SAVING THROWS
Breath Attacks Poison or Petrify Death or Paralyze Wands Spells or Spell-like Devices
0 Human 17 14 16 15 18
1-3 15 12 14 13 16
4-6 13 10 12 11 14
7-9 9 8 10 9 12
10-12 7 6 8 7 10
13-15 5 4 6 5 8
16-18 4 4 5 4 7
19+ 4 3 4 3 6

The main question is, if this it what you're wanting from saves, why bother playing C&C when you can play AD&D or any of various retro-clones? If you want a tougher game at higher levels, at least from the perspective of saves versus higher level foes, then go with C&C.

P.S.--Can't seem to get the table to format properly. Read from left to right and it makes sense.

I'm a C&C guy.. ascending AC, BAB, the universal resolution mechanic, etc. But was just thinking of how to adjust for an (even) more OSR flavor. I hadn't thought of dropping the CR until I read what the one guy posted. Just got the wheels turning.

[Persimmon]

Another thing I've seen folks do for spells is use the actual spell level rather than the caster level as the CL. That would certainly change things and bring them closer to AD&D, though it's not quite the same scaling.

[paladinn]

Another thing I've seen folks do for spells is use the actual spell level rather than the caster level as the CL. That would certainly change things and bring them closer to AD&D, though it's not quite the same scaling.

I've done this for a while. I guess going with the "no-CR" model, the level would only affect the spell effects, not the saves.

C&C has been called the Rosetta Stone of D&D, and I'm beginning to believe it. Other than 4e, I don't know if there's an edition that C&C can't run with minimal tweaking. And the Siege engine is an amazing universal resolution mechanic.

[Gundoggy]

I used a hybrid model where saves do depend on level/hitdice of attacker but the PC's improvement by level is greater.

I use 2/3 of the hit dice of the attacker to adjust the difficulty while the PC's get their full level bonus to save. You can adjust this from 1/2 to 3/4 to suit your preference for difficulty..

[bulletmeat]

If I were to go CB, no CLs I would change CBs to 13 prime, 17 non-prime and then gain a class/HD bonus every 2 levels. So 1st and 2nd level or 1 & 2 HD would have a +1 on the roll, 3rd & 4th +2, etc. This would allow a greater difficulty later on and be slightly more akin to older D&D.
Or, keep level bonus as is and change CRs to DC akin to 3e+; novice = 8, journeyman = 12, expert = 16, master = 20, grandmaster = 24, improbable = 28.

[jdizzy001]

I have been using just the CB for some time 12/18 with CL 0 since 2020. It does make the characters a bit more “heroic” but it hasn’t broken the game by any means. For context, my players are level 6 and don’t encounter many magic users. The magic user they did encounter almost killed them as my son’s rogue failed is CB 12 saving throw.

Another idea I’ve toyed with is using the first print AA prime not prime split of 10/15 and not adding level to dice rolls. This wouldn’t allow for much “progression” of a character outside of combat stats, but all things being equal in a d20 game easy rolls tend to gravitate around the 8-10 while harder rolls gravitate towards 15-18 difficulty.

[paladinn]

I have been using just the CB for some time 12/18 with CL 0 since 2020. It does make the characters a bit more “heroic” but it hasn’t broken the game by any means. For context, my players are level 6 and don’t encounter many magic users. The magic user they did encounter almost killed them as my son’s rogue failed is CB 12 saving throw.

Another idea I’ve toyed with is using the first print AA prime not prime split of 10/15 and not adding level to dice rolls. This wouldn’t allow for much “progression” of a character outside of combat stats, but all things being equal in a d20 game easy rolls tend to gravitate around the 8-10 while harder rolls gravitate towards 15-18 difficulty.

So under what circumstances would you use a CL? Or just never?

[jdizzy001]

I don’t. Everything is CL0. Granted you can add a CL if something is particularly difficult. But I call for more rolls than is necessary for C&C hence my use of CL 0. I like heroic PCs (heroic mind you, not super heroic like D&D).