Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

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paladinn
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Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

In C&C, fighters gain Weapon Specialization at L1. This is a flat +1 to hit and damage with one weapon. This bonus goes up to +2 at L7, and another +1 at L13 and 19.

By contrast, 5e (don't throw anything) give fighter-types (fighters, paladins, rangers) a Fighting Style at L1 or 2. The available styles are:
Archery - +2 attack with ranged weapons (I call this Marksman)
Defense - +1 AC when wearing armor
Dueling - +2 damage when fighting with one melee weapon and the other hand empty
Great Weapon - 2-handed weapons; re-roll 1s and 2s on attack rolls
Protection - using a shield; impose disadvantage on attacks against a nearby target (I know, disadvantage isn't a C&C thing)
2 Weapon - add your ability mod to the damage of the 2nd attack
Thrown Weapon - +2 damage
Unarmed - strikes do 1D6 + STR mod damage, or 1D8 when completely unarmed

Another take on Great Weapon is that when you drop a foe, you get another attack on a nearby target Or you can take a -5 penalty and add +10 to the damage.

Obviously Weapon Spec would continue as-is at higher levels; but for L1, would a Fighting Style work for a C&C fighter? It seems it would be a good way to differentiate fighters.

Thoughts?

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Persimmon
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by Persimmon »

I don't see why not. Just give them a choice of your preferred options and I'd restrict it to straight fighters, not any of the subclasses, which already have lots of other abilities.

I'll add that one tweak I've done for rangers is that at character creation they can choose to get their level damage bonus versus humanoids (Path of the Warden), animals, both mundane & giant, including lycanthropes (Path of the Huntsman), or otherworldly horrors, which would include devils & demons (Path of the Guardian). Just another way to add flavor and create alternative organizations for ranger PCs to join.
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

Thanks. I'm also considering improving Combat Dominance to allow it against creatures of 1/2 the fighter's HD or less. It automatically powers-up as the fighter levels-up. And a number of swings up to the fighter's level. I had started to give Cleave, but it steps on some other features. In 1e, CD (or their equivalent) was available from L1. I'd like to do that too, but it does make the fighter pretty front-loaded.

And yes, absolutely limit to core fighters.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

I took a look at Pathfinder's version of Weapon Specialization, "Weapon Training." A fighter gets 4 steps of Weapon Training at L5, 9, 13 and 17. At L5 s/he picks one group of weapons and gets a +1/+1 bonus. At L9, s/he chooses another group for +1/+1 and the first group Increases by +1/+1. So by L17, s/he has one weapon group with +4/+4, one with +3/+3, one with +2/+2 and one with +1/+1.

This seems like it would be a big improvement over C&C Weapon Specialization, which gives a new weapon Or an increase to a previous one.
The question is, it is too much for C&C?

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Re: Weapon Specialization

Post by paladinn »

Still pondering WS.. Right now btb, WS gives a +1 to hit and damage. Each subsequent WS adds +1/+1. I'm allowing a fighter to take a new weapon instead at +1/+1.

I'm thinking of how maybe to mix this up a bit:
1. Most melee weapons would work as btb: +1/+1
2. "Great weapons" (i.e. 2-handers) would get an initial +2 damage, but no attack bonus
3. Missile weapons would get an initial +2 to hit, but no damage bonus.

Subsequent WS would still add +1/+1 as btb.

This allows different fighters to work very differently.

Thoughts?

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by bulletmeat »

How do you adjust the monk abilities with the Unarmed style above?
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

bulletmeat wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:10 pm
How do you adjust the monk abilities with the Unarmed style above?
I'm backing off from that and just focusing on mods to Weapon Specialization.

The Amazing Adventures RPG (also from Troll Lord) has a pugilist class that I lean more toward in a "Western"-themed campaign.

But typically WS or FS would be limited to fighters (and maybe, in a limited way to paladins and rangers).

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by Lurker »

I've HRed my games to give fighters (and a level or 2 later fighter sub classes) fighting style first, then weapon groups, and then finally weapon specialization. It gives fighters something cool every ??3ish?? (I can't remember exactly when I gave them the bumps) levels.

It never broke the game (great thing about C&C is it is HR able without breaking), so whatever fits your power level and game feel, go for it and enjoy.

As for Monk, I NEVER like the 'eastern' monk in D&D games, and make a Pankrationist class years ago. Make it a Geek peltast/Pankrationsit type class that slowly lossed the need for armor and used limited and eventually no weapons other than fists knees etc. It was only played 3 maybe 4 times and never over 6ish level even then so not sure if it works as planned, but I liked the idea of it at least.
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by maximus »

Agreed, in a Western Medieval style game the traditional Monk does not fit well. Pankration was taught to Greek, and later Roman soldiers as part of their martial training. This might make more sense.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

Lurker wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:52 am
I've HRed my games to give fighters (and a level or 2 later fighter sub classes) fighting style first, then weapon groups, and then finally weapon specialization. It gives fighters something cool every ??3ish?? (I can't remember exactly when I gave them the bumps) levels.

It never broke the game (great thing about C&C is it is HR able without breaking), so whatever fits your power level and game feel, go for it and enjoy.

As for Monk, I NEVER like the 'eastern' monk in D&D games, and make a Pankrationist class years ago. Make it a Geek peltast/Pankrationsit type class that slowly lossed the need for armor and used limited and eventually no weapons other than fists knees etc. It was only played 3 maybe 4 times and never over 6ish level even then so not sure if it works as planned, but I liked the idea of it at least.
I'm curious as to how you did fighting styles. Was it pretty much as it is in "the latest edition of The Game", or did you do something else? How did you do fighter subclasses? I'm plowing a lot of the same ground it seems.

Gratzi!

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

maximus wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:33 pm
Agreed, in a Western Medieval style game the traditional Monk does not fit well. Pankration was taught to Greek, and later Roman soldiers as part of their martial training. This might make more sense.
In that case, maybe unarmed fighting needs to be an option for fighters?

As for Monks, I notice the C&C monk, even btb, is a lot less "mystical" than some renditions. Speak with plants and animals??

I'll probably end up mashing-up the C&C monk with the AA pugilist.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by maximus »

paladinn wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:59 pm
maximus wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:33 pm
Agreed, in a Western Medieval style game the traditional Monk does not fit well. Pankration was taught to Greek, and later Roman soldiers as part of their martial training. This might make more sense.
In that case, maybe unarmed fighting needs to be an option for fighters?

As for Monks, I notice the C&C monk, even btb, is a lot less "mystical" than some renditions. Speak with plants and animals??

I'll probably end up mashing-up the C&C monk with the AA pugilist.
I forgot about the pugilist. Good call.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by Brick Hardslab »

I include India style martial artists as well as pankration style giving a wide variety of styles and weapons as well as spiritual backgrounds/religious possibilities. A guy could be a pankration teacher, a Orthodox monk who learned the same. An Indian soldier from a dozen different backgrounds or a Tocharian even who studied in the east.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by maximus »

Brick Hardslab wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:43 pm
I include India style martial artists as well as pankration style giving a wide variety of styles and weapons as well as spiritual backgrounds/religious possibilities. A guy could be a pankration teacher, a Orthodox monk who learned the same. An Indian soldier from a dozen different backgrounds or a Tocharian even who studied in the east.
A Tocharian? Nice! I love bringing historical elements into my game.

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by Captain_K »

Check out the TRACK fight published in the Domesday free download on the other TLGs website Knights of the Crusade. It's a compilation of all the various folks "house rules" that give the fighter a tad more. I think you will like it and it give the fighter more to look forward to other than +1 to hit.
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by Lurker »

paladinn wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:56 pm
Lurker wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:52 am
I've HRed my games to give fighters (and a level or 2 later fighter sub classes) fighting style first, then weapon groups, and then finally weapon specialization. It gives fighters something cool every ??3ish?? (I can't remember exactly when I gave them the bumps) levels.

It never broke the game (great thing about C&C is it is HR able without breaking), so whatever fits your power level and game feel, go for it and enjoy.

As for Monk, I NEVER like the 'eastern' monk in D&D games, and make a Pankrationist class years ago. Make it a Geek peltast/Pankrationsit type class that slowly lossed the need for armor and used limited and eventually no weapons other than fists knees etc. It was only played 3 maybe 4 times and never over 6ish level even then so not sure if it works as planned, but I liked the idea of it at least.
I'm curious as to how you did fighting styles. Was it pretty much as it is in "the latest edition of The Game", or did you do something else? How did you do fighter subclasses? I'm plowing a lot of the same ground it seems.

Gratzi!
I'd have to dig out my HRs to be sure but in general it was a fighter can use any style weapon etc, but has specialized in a preferred style. Each one gave a specific bonus.

If I remember correctly it was something like
Sward & board - specialized in 1 handed weapon & shield - get an additional +1 to AC and a free 'shield bash' attack every other round at no penalty

2 Handed weapons - specialized in things like spear , great axe etc etc etc. bonus to trip / disarm opponent & penalty against an opponent trying to disarm the specialist

Finesse - specialized in light 1 handed weapons Short Sword Rapier etc (or for a Viking culture hand axe saex etc) use dex bonus for attack and damage bonus

2 weapon fighting - specialized in a weapon in each hand (both had to be one handed light type weapons - no '2 weapon fighting with a bastard sword in each hand ... I can't remember where I saw that but I remember a character somewhere fighting like that and my mind exploded with the reality of weapon physics being ignored)

There were one or 2 others I can't remember off the top of my head

For the fighter sub classes - Ranger, Paladin, Berserker, Chavilear, - they each got their chance to pick a specialty at a later level - fighter gets it at lvl 1, I can't remember which class got it at which level.
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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by paladinn »

Lurker wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 3:03 am
paladinn wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:56 pm
Lurker wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:52 am
I've HRed my games to give fighters (and a level or 2 later fighter sub classes) fighting style first, then weapon groups, and then finally weapon specialization. It gives fighters something cool every ??3ish?? (I can't remember exactly when I gave them the bumps) levels.

It never broke the game (great thing about C&C is it is HR able without breaking), so whatever fits your power level and game feel, go for it and enjoy.

As for Monk, I NEVER like the 'eastern' monk in D&D games, and make a Pankrationist class years ago. Make it a Geek peltast/Pankrationsit type class that slowly lossed the need for armor and used limited and eventually no weapons other than fists knees etc. It was only played 3 maybe 4 times and never over 6ish level even then so not sure if it works as planned, but I liked the idea of it at least.
I'm curious as to how you did fighting styles. Was it pretty much as it is in "the latest edition of The Game", or did you do something else? How did you do fighter subclasses? I'm plowing a lot of the same ground it seems.

Gratzi!
I'd have to dig out my HRs to be sure but in general it was a fighter can use any style weapon etc, but has specialized in a preferred style. Each one gave a specific bonus.

If I remember correctly it was something like
Sward & board - specialized in 1 handed weapon & shield - get an additional +1 to AC and a free 'shield bash' attack every other round at no penalty

2 Handed weapons - specialized in things like spear , great axe etc etc etc. bonus to trip / disarm opponent & penalty against an opponent trying to disarm the specialist

Finesse - specialized in light 1 handed weapons Short Sword Rapier etc (or for a Viking culture hand axe saex etc) use dex bonus for attack and damage bonus

2 weapon fighting - specialized in a weapon in each hand (both had to be one handed light type weapons - no '2 weapon fighting with a bastard sword in each hand ... I can't remember where I saw that but I remember a character somewhere fighting like that and my mind exploded with the reality of weapon physics being ignored)

There were one or 2 others I can't remember off the top of my head

For the fighter sub classes - Ranger, Paladin, Berserker, Chavilear, - they each got their chance to pick a specialty at a later level - fighter gets it at lvl 1, I can't remember which class got it at which level.
Interesting.. Do you have any docs of how you did paladins, rangers and berserkers as fighter sub-classes? I'm wanting to do much the same thing. Do they deviate much from the BtB classes?

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Re: Weapon Specialization vs Fighting Style

Post by jdizzy001 »

I usually just award the fighter advantages from the CKG. A lot of the fighters power is dependent on the CK too. If the CK isn’t sending hd1 mooks at the party he is doing the fighter a disservice. I also award the fighter cleave early on so he gets some additional attacks that aren’t based on the HD of his target.
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