Continual Flame

[maximus]

Piggybacking off this subject on another site, what do you think of the Continual Flame spell in terms of power and effect on the game? I know it's not the same as Continual Light, which many people think unbalances the game, but this still has an effect on encumbrance, surprise, and spell allocation.

How do you use it in your game?

[Brick Hardslab]

I've built it in as a source of income for anyone with the spell as well as an imperial edict for my Númenórean or Roman style empires. Street lights that actually work and need no real upkeep beyond keeping the lamp/lantern/post from decaying. In a town that gets abandon by the empire, everyone steals them first. Everyone from a farmer to the local warlord needs light that does not threaten to set your hovel/barn/fortress on fire.

I've dropped all the hints but the characters haven't started putting a continual flame spell on something obvious like a clear marble or agate or something then used that as the light source to create a miner's lantern type deal.

[Go0gleplex]

How does continual light unbalance the game? ( Oo ) Worst abuse we had of it was making flash lights with scroll tubes and a flip cap. Continual Flame...really hasn't even come up in my games due to no one really running druids or clerics. So pretty much a no impact thing for me. At worst, I'd think just using it in a hooded lantern would be about it in terms of actual usefulness outside of in towns as Brick mentioned.

[serleran]

Continual flames makes an interesting burial marker.

As a player, I have used it but not often as it is not a spell I want in my regular adventuring list, but can find a use for from a scroll or other means -- spell resources are too vital to spend a slot on a spell that might never get cast.

As a Castle Keeper, no player has ever expressed a desire to use the spell even when I have made it available - the most we use it for are "always on" burners, like a skillet that perpetually cooks whatever is put on it, but not too fast it burns/chars. Those are fun items but not too overpowerful.

There are quite a lot of utility spells that make life easier but are not necessarily good adventurer spells.

[JediOre]

Yes, my players seldom even think about it, preferring the zero-level 'light' spell as a backup to their lanterns and two magic blades which shed light.

[maximus]

I've built it in as a source of income for anyone with the spell as well as an imperial edict for my Númenórean or Roman style empires. Street lights that actually work and need no real upkeep beyond keeping the lamp/lantern/post from decaying. In a town that gets abandon by the empire, everyone steals them first. Everyone from a farmer to the local warlord needs light that does not threaten to set your hovel/barn/fortress on fire.

I've dropped all the hints but the characters haven't started putting a continual flame spell on something obvious like a clear marble or agate or something then used that as the light source to create a miner's lantern type deal.

This is exactly the problem many seem to have with Continual Light. A low level, semi-permanent spell that players can use to make tons of cash and effectively light up the world.

[Go0gleplex]

Heck...if it is only an income thing, I (my character at the time) destroyed an entire city-state with the color cantrip and a weight adjustment spell. The military doesn't much like getting their wages messed with and tends to revolt when it happens. The joys of 1e ambiguity. Took all the copper from the massive treasure troves we ransacked in Castle Misbegotten, bought gems at over-inflated prices from jewelers with the gimicked coins over the next month...thirty days after the first instance, the coins that had been in circulation for some time, began changing back...leaving a LOT of hacked off people. Talking tens of thousands of coins...and no meddling kids to get in my way. 'Course I used what I didn't sell to eventually create my Copper Golem (before that was a thing officially). DM was fairly liberal with the loot...though what we had to get thru to get it was another thing.

I can't see a continual light spell being abused to that degree...especially if the thieves and assassin guilds take offense. A whole lot of 'dispel magic' items and spells being used...

[Brick Hardslab]

I've built it in as a source of income for anyone with the spell as well as an imperial edict for my Númenórean or Roman style empires. Street lights that actually work and need no real upkeep beyond keeping the lamp/lantern/post from decaying. In a town that gets abandon by the empire, everyone steals them first. Everyone from a farmer to the local warlord needs light that does not threaten to set your hovel/barn/fortress on fire.

I've dropped all the hints but the characters haven't started putting a continual flame spell on something obvious like a clear marble or agate or something then used that as the light source to create a miner's lantern type deal.

This is exactly the problem many seem to have with Continual Light. A low level, semi-permanent spell that players can use to make tons of cash and effectively light up the world.

Many players and CK don't realize that a prince or king would use magic available to him to make his kingdom better. Romans would certainly have lit their streets. Crucifixion would probably discourage anyone from stealing or molesting the properly lit lanterns. Professional adventurers would or should quickly realize the advantages of heatless/smokeless and perpetual light. Sure magic can put that out in a dungeon but magic can put out a torch or lantern.

Heck, If it were up to me I would use magic to purify the water supply/keep the sewers working properly and provide public healing/inoculation. Wizards would get filthy rich without needing to set foot outside the lovely imperial accommodations, wizards' palaces. Religious leaders could fill coffers and gain influence with rulers over their rivals simply by training up dedicated healers/public sanitation/blessing fields etc.

[Go0gleplex]

You see a lot of that in light novels and manga. Magic...the great cure all. But...one thing that such literature alludes to, which is great for world building and providing a sort of operative framework for magic, is that such things consume the ambivalent mana in the surrounding area. One or three such spells are not too bad...but many? Soon, all that magic is consuming all the mana in the city faster than it can be replaced. The spells begin to falter if not outright fail as the city becomes a magic dead zone. Casting or using such spells without the proper permits becomes illegal, punished with severe fines or prison time...neatly negating the get rich quick aspect...since said permits are expensive and nothing is as migraine inducing as a bullheaded bureaucracy and its paperwork.

But all is not lost! To combat this mana consumption, magic stones (aka mana stones, monster cores, magicite, etc.) are installed and used to power the spells rather than ambivalent mana. These don't come cheap...and adventurers are needed to hunt down the monsters to harvest the stones.

Now...if we go back to game rules...casters generally charge for their spells, it isn't done for free unless as part of the institution they are part of commands them. So say a 3rd level spell is requested. Sure...just fork over 300-500 gold (our group used 100 gp/level of spell then later switched to 100 gp/level of caster). So a king wants a street of continual light lamps...the street is 600 feet long so 10 such spells would be needed...or 3-5000 gold plus whatever the cost of the post installation & materials would be. Humans in power and/or positions of authority tend to be penny pinching misers unless it's for their own entertainment, protection, and/or benefit. Doing something with lights for their castle/manor grounds...sure. For the benefit of the peasantry? Not unless the world was ending.

[Bifford]

Fantastic conversation! Keep it going

[Grandpa]

In my game each casting requires 100 g.p. worth of semi or precious stones. This isn't so much to dissuade the PCs from replacing their torches as to justify why Continual flames don't fill every street and domicile. My game is S.P. based not G.P. So, if one thinks later medieval period and pounds sterling you are looking at over £6.0 per casting. Whereas a good draught horse costs 1£... Another consequence of the increased value is that most non-adventurers who can afford and manage to get a casting will not have it placed on the end of a large stick. Too easy to steal or destroy. Maybe a metal hooded lantern chained to their wall or a sconce similarly attacked to an immovable object.

[Grandpa]

even when I have made it available - the most we use it for are "always on" burners, like a skillet that perpetually cooks whatever is put on it, but not too fast it burns/chars. Those are fun items but not too overpowerful.

Continual flame doesn't give off heat

[Grandpa]

Heck, If it were up to me I would use magic to purify the water supply/keep the sewers working properly and provide public healing/inoculation. Wizards would get filthy rich without needing to set foot outside the lovely imperial accommodations, wizards' palaces. Religious leaders could fill coffers and gain influence with rulers over their rivals simply by training up dedicated healers/public sanitation/blessing fields etc.

This was already thought of by the authors of C&C. See pg. 33 in the CKG starting with the section; Healing in the Temporal World. A good treatise on why the world isn't like that. It'll help you explain it to your player's. Especially those playing clerics and druids.

[maximus]

Heck, If it were up to me I would use magic to purify the water supply/keep the sewers working properly and provide public healing/inoculation. Wizards would get filthy rich without needing to set foot outside the lovely imperial accommodations, wizards' palaces. Religious leaders could fill coffers and gain influence with rulers over their rivals simply by training up dedicated healers/public sanitation/blessing fields etc.

This was already thought of by the authors of C&C. See pg. 33 in the CKG starting with the section; Healing in the Temporal World. A good treatise on why the world isn't like that. It'll help you explain it to your player's. Especially those playing clerics and druids.

Good reference, thanks!

[maximus]

Fantastic conversation! Keep it going

Yea, it's great to see the different takes on this.

[Brick Hardslab]

Heck, If it were up to me I would use magic to purify the water supply/keep the sewers working properly and provide public healing/inoculation. Wizards would get filthy rich without needing to set foot outside the lovely imperial accommodations, wizards' palaces. Religious leaders could fill coffers and gain influence with rulers over their rivals simply by training up dedicated healers/public sanitation/blessing fields etc.

This was already thought of by the authors of C&C. See pg. 33 in the CKG starting with the section; Healing in the Temporal World. A good treatise on why the world isn't like that. It'll help you explain it to your player's. Especially those playing clerics and druids.

I read their take on it. I'm just saying if I were the evil over lord, benevolent dictator of the city-state, or king I'd do it differently!

[serleran]

even when I have made it available - the most we use it for are "always on" burners, like a skillet that perpetually cooks whatever is put on it, but not too fast it burns/chars. Those are fun items but not too overpowerful.

Continual flame doesn't give off heat

The spell itself, no, but when used to enchant an item in this specific way, yes, it does. There are several magic items that modify the way a spell functions.

Also, try to not tell me how things work for my game. I don't need your advice.

[Grandpa]

Also, try to not tell me how things work for my game. I don't need your advice.

Fine, don't reply to me then. I don't need your bad attitude nor your low English language comprehension.

[Grandpa]

I read their take on it. I'm just saying if I were the evil over lord, benevolent dictator of the city-state, or king I'd do it differently!

The magic for civil engineering could be interesting.

[Fizz]

Continual flame doesn't give off heat

The spell itself, no, but when used to enchant an item in this specific way, yes, it does.

Where does it say that, for this specific instance? I can find no precedent for that. If the flame doesn't give off heat, then what's heating the target?

There are several magic items that modify the way a spell functions.

But this isn't a magic item modifying a spell. This is a specific spell enchanting a mundane item. And that specific spell specifically says there is no heat.

Also, try to not tell me how things work for my game. I don't need your advice.

You didn't specify that it was your house rule. Stating the core rule is a legitimate reply (though it was given bluntly, perhaps).


-Fizz

[Grandpa]

You didn't specify that it was your house rule. Stating the core rule is a legitimate reply (though it was given bluntly, perhaps).


-Fizz

The only reason I said anything is because we have had people new to the game on the boards recently so wanted to clarify RAW or be corrected if I missed out on some magic item in the rule books.

[Go0gleplex]

I read their take on it. I'm just saying if I were the evil over lord, benevolent dictator of the city-state, or king I'd do it differently!

The magic for civil engineering could be interesting.

I have spells for that! LOL But yeah. Stone Shape, Pulverize, Plant Growth (and its reverse), Rock to Mud, Summon Elemental for the official spells off the top of my head. Out of my homebrew stuff there's Dry, Dig, Harden Earth, Earth Hut, Hydro-Cutter, Identify Mineral/Ore, Pancake Crush, Refine Ore, Glue, Animate Element, Sand Scour, Shatter Stone, Dessicate, Bridge,

[Grandpa]

I read their take on it. I'm just saying if I were the evil over lord, benevolent dictator of the city-state, or king I'd do it differently!

The magic for civil engineering could be interesting.

I have spells for that! LOL But yeah. Stone Shape, Pulverize, Plant Growth (and its reverse), Rock to Mud, Summon Elemental for the official spells off the top of my head. Out of my homebrew stuff there's Dry, Dig, Harden Earth, Earth Hut, Hydro-Cutter, Identify Mineral/Ore, Pancake Crush, Refine Ore, Glue, Animate Element, Sand Scour, Shatter Stone, Dessicate, Bridge,

Very cool. I just have one spell that is used by Dwarves. Crushed rock of a single type to liquid rock, then rehardens in the new shape. Good for making solid granite walls and stuff.

[Bifford]

Keep it civil, all. Remember that text is a hard medium to use and it is easy to accidentally insinuate something you didn't mean to/read something that was not intended.

[Lurker]

Being a fan of 'low magic' settings, I'll be the voice of decent here on this one

Of course if your setting is high magic, yes Rome would have continual light / flame to light the streets, and 100s of other uses for common low level 'useful' spells. However, if magic is less common, or the various gods and goddesses do not appreciate their limited pool of miracles being siphoned off to do some common menial lowly thing like putting a flickering light in some random no name unimportant alley, or a move earth or stone to what ever to build a sewer (how insulting to tell goddess X that her divine power is going to make a hole someone is going to use for #2 ...) If that is the setting's level, then said kings will not have access to those spells for every day use throughout the kingdom. Maybe for an important person in the kingdom (think of a badge of office being an oak 'rod' with the continual flame on it making the person as an officer of the king), or as a flame marker on an important shrine etc.

Or the established mage guild etc, in order to protect society from greedy immoral other casters (that would destroy the economy flooding the area with gold(copper) coins), limit the use of those spells and do not allow casters use magic for things like that - better in the long run to charge a bit for spells with a limit on time than a little more for a spell that last forever.

A side note - I do agree with Serl on 'continual flame' causing heat. If it didn't why call it flame ??? I know it is a HR, but to me the name of a thing trumps a random description of the spell. Of course it is a HR and to each their own.

I do like GoO's 'magic siphons off area mana so widespread use of those spells may drain an area of magic. It goes with some FR locations I remember having magic dead or wild magic zones - another reason the mage guild will not allow abuse of those spells. Also, I remember something from a FR Drow book about magic being used to shape underdark things, but then when the magic fails (for what ever reason, none is given on how why it would fail) the whole area falls apart - dangerous when shape stone used to divert the underwater river fails and the river floods the cave -

Something else that bubbled up in the ole computer between the ears, I remember a setting in the 3.5 days, something pirate flavored, that magic was corrupting of the area (and the dark fay taught magic to people hoping they would use and abuse it so it weakened the magic in the area to the point that the dark fey could break free and run amuck). I might be mixing facts on it, it has been a long time since I read it, but you get the idea. If magic has that effect then yes the mage guild will without a doubt not allow spells like that to be used, because who knows when the next casting of continual flame will weaken the magic bonds enough for a pesky imp or puck to slip into the city ... Well I do love imps running around my setting so cast away there !

[Fizz]

Being a fan of 'low magic' settings, I'll be the voice of decent here on this one

I think you mean "dissent". But i'm also a low magic fan myself. I like it rare and not normal to most folk.

A side note - I do agree with Serl on 'continual flame' causing heat. If it didn't why call it flame ??? I know it is a HR, but to me the name of a thing trumps a random description of the spell. Of course it is a HR and to each their own.

Only if you follow real-world physics. But if you did that then there'd be no magic at all. So even in a low-magic world, you need not be bound by such rules.

I think the spell is a holdover from 3e. AD&D did not have such a spell; it had Light and Continual Light. My guess is when 3e was designed, they decided that Continual Light (which was both permanent and bright as day) was too potent. So they devised two enhanced versions of Light: one that gets brighter (Daylight), and one that lasts forever (Continual Flame). The flaming bit is pure affactation, perhaps more "medieval-feeling" than a permanent glow stick / modern led lamp that a pure light effect would present.

House ruling that it gives off heat does make it a much stonger / flexible spell: it could be used as protection against cold weather, or setting things aflame, or even causing direct damage to enemies.

Something else that bubbled up in the ole computer between the ears, I remember a setting in the 3.5 days, something pirate flavored, that magic was corrupting of the area ... because who knows when the next casting of continual flame will weaken the magic bonds enough for a pesky imp or puck to slip into the city ... Well I do love imps running around my setting so cast away there !

The Dark Sun setting (from 2nd ed) had something similar. Magic affected the world, and using it drained the surrounding area of life. The setting even had two types of wizards, defilers and preservers, that reflected the drain that magic had on the world.


-Fizz

[maximus]

Apparently Gary Gygax considered using Continual Light as a solid option. In "City of Hawks" he refers to it several times as the protagonist, Gord, searches for a light source needed for an underground excursion. He also mentions the fact that wealthy folks would utilize it for mundane things like lighting their homes. Also, he indicated what the cost of a CL spell from a cleric would be. Of course this is not BTB, but gives a good idea of how it could turn out in game play.

"He decided that what he needed was an object en-spelled by a cleric, one that the priest had treated to make it give off strong light for a long time. Gord had seen such things occasionally. Wealthy people used them to light their dwellings and the areas around them. Rushlights, fat lamps, and candles were also used for this purpose, but only the poor folk had to employ such expensive and temporary means of illumination exclusively. Expensive, indeed… Perhaps the priest-lights were more dear than he supposed. He had to find out."

"At that the cleric actually gave a gentle laugh. “Of some of the students at the university I could believe it-but that you’d be able to simply reach into your purse and count out the money is doubtful. You are no rich young noble, that is evident. You are likely the son of a merchant or a military officer from the look of you, boy. Where would you get so large a sum as three thousand zees to pay for the item?”

3,000 bronze zees = 300 copper = 30 silver = 3 gold if I remember the Greyhawk conversion rate correctly. The exchange rates and item costs were much more realistic in his fiction compared to the BTB costs.

Just food for thought...

[Grandpa]

3,000 bronze zees = 300 copper = 30 silver = 3 gold if I remember the Greyhawk conversion rate correctly. The exchange rates and item costs were much more realistic in his fiction compared to the BTB costs.

Just food for thought...

Which is why I made it G.P. 100 per casting, based on the prices of items in the equipment tables. Out of reach for the common man or to benefit the commoner.

[maximus]

3,000 bronze zees = 300 copper = 30 silver = 3 gold if I remember the Greyhawk conversion rate correctly. The exchange rates and item costs were much more realistic in his fiction compared to the BTB costs.

Just food for thought...

Which is why I made it G.P. 100 per casting, based on the prices of items in the equipment tables. Out of reach for the common man or to benefit the commoner.

Seems like a good price for what you get