A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

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AndrewT
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A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by AndrewT »

I posted a similar question on the FG forums and got a couple of helpful answers

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/s ... post674476

but I thought I’d ask it here. Any answers appreciated!

VTTs have become something we use even during tabletop sessions – it puts all the info and reference material right at your finger tips. Like, which of their spells should the lich chose and what does it do? VTTs also allow me as a busy G/DM to try out other systems, settings etc to see if there are worth suggesting or just simply because I want to!

To put it briefly: When I finally got to have a serious look at C&C it did something weird to me. It gratified that part of me that wants something as feature-rich and satisfying as 3.5/PFRPG and gave me something of the simplicity and enjoyment I forever associate with AD&D 1! I could go on (I often do …) but there really is no need in this case.

So. I want a VTT for C&C and I want it now. Which one? (I already have the books.)

My instinct is to go with the Forge version because it seems to have closer links with the original creators, ie Troll Lord.

One important thing for me is to be able to customise and be free to decide how things get done – a habit everyone who is principally a tabletop player probably has. So, for instance, I like the idea of Support classes as set out in Expanding Classes. With the SmiteWorks version I might have to buy the digital supplement but I can do it. Can I (or will be able at some point) just customise to get the same effect in the Forge version? The foundry vtt version is excellent and I’m using it and enjoying it loads, but it’s only beta and hardly full featured … yet.

The SmiteWorks version has loads of material (almost everything in existence, unless I'm missing something) so that's a massive plus.

Thanks in anticipation for any answers!

Andrew

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Bison
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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Bison »

I use Fantasy Grounds and have had a good experience. The learning curve is pretty steep but the game plays well. I have no experience with Foundry so I cannot make a comparison.

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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by AndrewT »

Bison wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:07 am
I use Fantasy Grounds and have had a good experience. The learning curve is pretty steep but the game plays well. I have no experience with Foundry so I cannot make a comparison.
Thanks for the answer Bison.

I finally decided on the FG via SmiteWorks itself and the Forge C&C stuff (Rolemaster too). Not steam.

I'm really pleased. Really. I think there is also an issue that the Steam version is being phased out because the whole thing needs updating. I'm not sure i've got that right.

Still, i'm looking forward to all the stuff coming over to the Forge. Worth every penny.

By way of comparison, i found this thread super helpful:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/s ... vs-Foundry

So far i find FG really good.

It's not as slick as Foundry, but i have this feeling (again, i'm open to correction!) that FG is more player centred (it is more easily customisable etc) while feel foundry is slicker because it's first aim is to be a platform for developers (I'm not a dev at all, though my youngest son has done a bit, but i'm pretty computer literate for a non-computer person and still i find Foundry complicated at times - look how the 2 systems handle the adventurers' staple light sources like torches and spells, for instance!).

That's NOT to say i'm leaving Foundry for FG. Not at all. For starters, both have content not available on the other (Foundry gets stuff from Free league, for instance).

Hope this helps other people trying to decide on this issue!

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Bison
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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Bison »

I am not sure about steam losing support. I have my FG Ulitmate license through Steam and have had no issues. Upgraded to the unity version and patched the new versions of C&C PHB and M&T through Forge on Smiteworks.

Now I wish I had just directly supported Smiteworks instead but I got FG many years ago during one of the winter sales. The one issue I do have is Smiteworks continues to list C&C content on Steam that is not integrated with the latest C&C ruleset release. So if you want to use modules from Steam, i.e. the A series. You need to use the previous 7th printing ruleset and not the 8th. Fortunately, the 7th ruleset is free atm.

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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Fiffergrund »

I have used Roll20 in the past but I'm considering an "upgrade" to a better supported and more reliable platform. The problem I have is that I don't want to have a separate VTT for each game I want to play (I will play C&C, Free League stuff like Tales from the Loop, Conan 2d20, CoC BRP, etc.)

I also don't want to be pigeonholed into buying stuff on the VTT that I already have. If it's easy enough to build it myself, sometimes the calculation is that I can make it work without dumping the extra money. I'd like that option.

Finally, I don't want to host stuff myself and open my home network. Cloud is it.

Given that, what thoughts do any of you have on where I should be looking? I'm willing to take a serious look at anything - totally unbiased except I think Roll20 isn't quite what I want.

[Edit] Another consideration is that I want to work with something that plenty of folks can access and use easily. I may offer a game or two on Discord, so I don't want to choose something that has higher barriers for players.
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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Trueshaft »

I have FGU, but I do not like it for C&C . For me, it's a huge PITA. Very fiddly. For a system like that to work, it needs to either be simple or fully automated. For some reason, Troll Lord's devs have tried to straddle a middle line. Some things are automated, but it's still very fiddly, and doing things like setting up multi classed or class-and-a-half type characters is a lot of work. For C&C, I prefer something super simple where the VTT doesn't get in the way of the system. I prefer Owlbear Rodeo, which is a very simple VTT that gives you and your players a map and tokens you can move around. It also has a dice roller ( not ideal, most CKs simply let players roll their own dice on the honor system). The downside is there really isn't any frill-like character sheets or rules systems built in, so you and your players will need your actual character sheets and books ( or pdfs) to play off of. The upside is, you don't have to wait for the publisher to convert a particular book, supplement or rules update. You can create custom classes, races, and monsters, etc., and just use them. Owlbear also comes with generic tokens but it's easy to make your own for your NPCs and characters. And the original Owlbear Rodeo is free to use and browser-based ( you can run it on anything, even your phone or a tablet btw), but they are actively working on a new version that is more robust and adds more features. https://www.owlbear.rodeo/ . Oh, and it is easy to use with your players. When you create your game, you just need to send them the link to your game and they can easily join. They don't have to download anything.
Enjoy playing and CKing C & C as much as I'm able. I'm usually free on Sundays and Tuesdays just about any time. Both as a player, and CK.

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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Fiffergrund »

Appreciate the feedback! I'll give it a look.
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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by Geroblue »

I've been trying out Epic Table. Haven't used it for a game though. I do suggest watching his videos. 30 day trial you can use it for CK or player, after that, player only. It is game agnostic.

https://www.epictable.com/

edit: And you can host games at the table without being online. A downloaded file. No subscriptions.
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Re: A VTT for C&C: FG SmiteWorks, Forge or wait for Foundry?

Post by AndrewT »

Trueshaft wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:08 am
I have FGU, but I do not like it for C&C . For me, it's a huge PITA. Very fiddly. For a system like that to work, it needs to either be simple or fully automated. For some reason, Troll Lord's devs have tried to straddle a middle line. Some things are automated, but it's still very fiddly, and doing things like setting up multi classed or class-and-a-half type characters is a lot of work. For C&C, I prefer something super simple where the VTT doesn't get in the way of the system. I prefer Owlbear Rodeo, which is a very simple VTT that gives you and your players a map and tokens you can move around. It also has a dice roller ( not ideal, most CKs simply let players roll their own dice on the honor system). The downside is there really isn't any frill-like character sheets or rules systems built in, so you and your players will need your actual character sheets and books ( or pdfs) to play off of. The upside is, you don't have to wait for the publisher to convert a particular book, supplement or rules update. You can create custom classes, races, and monsters, etc., and just use them. Owlbear also comes with generic tokens but it's easy to make your own for your NPCs and characters. And the original Owlbear Rodeo is free to use and browser-based ( you can run it on anything, even your phone or a tablet btw), but they are actively working on a new version that is more robust and adds more features. https://www.owlbear.rodeo/ . Oh, and it is easy to use with your players. When you create your game, you just need to send them the link to your game and they can easily join. They don't have to download anything.
I've quoted Trueshaft's reply, but it's really a response to all the posts since my last one.

Trueshaft hit the nail on the head. At first i was delighted with the C&C stuff because the Forge version had literally everything i needed (including adventurers backpack), but then i realised it is, like he says, neither simple nor fully automated but a not good middle line. I could have coped with how it looked but the whole thing was just too fiddly and i just couldn't get all the information i needed very easily and some of it i couldn't get at all (well i gave up after 5 minutes). I'm glad to hear it's a problem with C&C because my plan was originally to get Rolemaster stuff - a complicated system, and i just hope the implementation in FG is good.

So i asked for a refund which i got fully and almost immediately. So good for FG/Forge.

I already spent the money I got in the refund, over $100, on digital stuff straight from Trolllord and i'm using that (it was often quicker and gave more information to consult the pdfs outside of FG!). I also got a lot of stuff in physical form from a friend who got back from the states.

Plus i've gone back to using foundry which is very adaptable and though you only have the quick start guide (with wizards tower) you can customise it loads (i created a pseudodragon familiar as a character for my daughter to go with her wizard) and there is lots of free stuff - which was a headache knowing what to do and what to chose until i got used to it.

I like Owlbear rodeo as well and used it lots until i decided i wanted to use a vtt even at the tabletop as a information reference (foundry is excellent at that and i'm hoping FG/Rolemaster is too!). I also like mythic table (www.mythictable.com) and still use it because it is, for me, a really fully-featured tool when it comes to creating maps, grids, character tokens and dice rolling, just like owlbear. In fact if mythic table offered basic support for rules i would probably use it more even - it handles and looks great!

Thanks again for the answers. Time to sort out my FG Rolemaster!

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