Trolls dropping 5e ?

[Fizz]

Just found this...
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/t ... e-are.html

What's new about the OGL 1.1 that would cause TLG to not sign (as suggested by the post)?

-Fizz

[Go0gleplex]

From what I've been reading on it; 3rd party content makers (non-WotC) would be required to 1) register all new content with WotC/Hasbro; 2) pay 20-25% royalties if the product earns 750k+ in sales; 3) the OGL would not be applicable to anything other than written and similar content (so no video games, fan movies, artwork, etc). Any one of those three items would be a harsh negative to folks...all three together would be fiscally devastating for 3rd party content makers.

From a rather cynical point of view, the 1.1 OGL is an attempt to drive WotC's direct competitors out of the market (or business entirely) so they can have a unified customer base for their next D&D edition and maximize the gold going into their coffers...sort of a page out of GW's playbook. Frankly, I can see this going one of two ways. One, it plays out per my cynical impression. Two, it blows up in their face spectacularly by alienating the player base and cripples their market share as folks boycott/abandon D&D in mass (the less likely, but still possible route).

[Fizz]

Interesting. Well, if i were TLG i'd certainly tell WotC to shove it too.

-Fizz

[maximus]

Glad to hear it, as I think they've lost focus as late. I won't spend a dime on anything D&D related other than legacy 1E stuff in any case. Wankers of the Coast lost me long ago.

[serleran]

The 4e license was draconic. I can only imagine it to continue a NIN song/album until things return to the 80s and early nineties, with small companies unable to claim any relation to the D&D brand, even by association, and individuals resort to full homegrown publications.

So, basically, exactly the best thing for the industry and not far from how things are now, probably (I have not bought much "new" product for quite some time so I don't know.)

[Fizz]

For what it's worth, here's a take on it from Tenkar's. ( I offer no opinion on it. )
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/a ... boats.html

-Fizz

[Grandpa]

For what it's worth, here's a take on it from Tenkar's. ( I offer no opinion on it. )
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/a ... boats.html

-Fizz

Funny as I thought of this for the Trolls yesterday '"they'll form a new corporate identity to publish material just for the new OGL and keep the old company working under the old OGL."

[Fizz]

Hrmmm... and based on this, 1.1 revokes the earlier OGL, and will result in OSR games being pulled. Really? If so how does that affect TLG and C&C?
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/t ... ys-of.html

-Fizz

[Go0gleplex]

The article and subsequent link to the 1.1 breakdown said it all. It is meant...meant! to kill ALL commercial competitors to WotC and D&D. Simply because the Evil Empire Jr see them as taking WotC's rightful money away and that, sorry...we at EE Jr really didn't mean for the OGL to allow anyone but us to make a buck and that we are going to claim anything with any names, mechanics, etc. remotely or as can conceivably linked to EE Jr copyrights, IP, trademarks, underwear sizes, etc. as EE Jr. property no matter what. So suck on it and please buy our product since it's the only one left.

Outside of the vitriolic rant, the second sentence pretty much sums up. Since C&C is itself based on the OGL with modifications, it will need to register as commercial only if total company, not individual product, revenue falls under the 750k$/yr threshold. Otherwise...it's register AND pony up 20-25% of the income (not profits...income) or cease production since the license to do so will be revoked. That's what the OGL 1.1 outlines.

The only ones that can really say what's gonna happen are the Trolls and the Legal Liches. The rest of us are just gonna have to kibitz from the sidelines as we watch the Great Train Wreck unfold.

[GreyLord]

I'm not sure that's how it's all going to pan out.

I think the intent was to kill any ability for those who use the OGL 1.0a (or 1.0 for that matter) to ever be able to use the NEW SRD that they are going to release for the new version (or updated version?) of D&D.

If anything was thought to be killed as an after thought it may be 5e content. I don't think 3.5 and earlier make enough money for Hasbro to really worry about (I could be wrong) or think about comparatively.

They probably would be concerned that with the release of their One D&D someone may come around and release a traditional 5e clone which would cut into their sales.

I for one would HOPE that the Trolls can continue making C&C, but also think that they have the legal kill pill as well if they want. If the OGL1.0a is rescinded and the Trolls do NOT sign on with 1.1, I think the way skills and saves are utilized in 5e are close enough to how C&C did it first, that legally if there is no longer any contract, WotC may actually be the ones that could be in trouble???

As you say, it's up to the Trolls and Legal Liches at this point...not the rest of us watching the show.

[Bifford]

Official statement from Troll Lord Games:

"TLG has been a longtime supporter of WoTC and Dungeons and Dragons. We started playing D&D in 1976. The news about the OGL 1.0 (a), if it is true, and it is important to note that as of this moment nothing official has been released, is rather disappointing.

Supporting the new OGL, in the form it appeared in the leaked commentary, is not an option for us at TLG. If it manifests in this speculated form, it is an unnecessarily harsh treatment of the entire TTRPG family, those who played, play, and who publish. It is basically an admission of distrust in the people who play their game, the very ones who bring it to ever greater heights of expression. TLG does not share that philosophy.

The only thing that maintains our stance in this ttrpg family is the family itself, creators, publishers, players, game masters, their own families, and friends who cheer them on from the sidelines. TLG will not sign this leaked OGL, nor participate in it in any way. Castles & Crusades and all the Siege Engine games are powered by the Siege Engine Attribute Check Mechanic, which is owned entirely by our parent company Chenault & Gray Publishing. What little pieces of the SRD leaked its way into our game over the years, we'll quietly remove, and carry on making and publishing games for us all to play."

[Grandpa]

I thought about all this for a while last night and determined that one COULD rewrite C&C without using ANY WotC copyrighted material relatively quickly. The material from the SRD used to make C&C is mostly mechanics and stuff which CANNOT be copyrighted. One could slightly tweak the wording in anything that is. So, game mechanics, text formats, races, classes, magic items, monsters (excepting copyrighted names which aren't in C&C anyway), weapons, armor, etc., etc. don't require ANY license from WotC. This is settled case law.

So, it should not be too difficult to decouple C&C completely from evil empire.

One thing, I remember HASBRO getting creamed by 44 states in Federal court over Sherman anti trust act violations for trying to squash competition. Was in the late 90's if I remember correctly. Maybe in for a replay.

[paladinn]

My biggest/only regrets on this are:

a. Some of the 5e materials (esp. Players' Guide to Aihdre) produced by TLG have been really good And have had instructions on adapting some 5e-isms to C&C. Some folks don't like that at all, but I've found it to be a good way to enhance the C&C game without losing what makes it special.
b. The Amazing Adventures 5e game is exactly what I personally would want in a "5e-Modern" game. It seems like this will preclude any more development on the AA5e line. Which is a true pity.

I'm definitely a Siege guy now; but good ideas are good ideas.

[Grandpa]

It seems like this will preclude any more development on the AA5e line. Which is a true pity.

Nope. Game mechanics are NOT copyrightable. So one can "import" whatever 5e mechanic into their product line that they want.

[Fizz]

I've not ever paid much attention to OGL, OGC, etc, so I don't understand it well. So forgive me if the following questions seem basic; just trying to get an improved understanding of how all these things fit together.

At the end of the C&C Player's Handbook is a list of Open Game Content. It includes things like "Dice", "the Six Attributes", "Class Descriptions Terminology", "Ad Hoc Encumberance", "Two-Weapon Fighting", "Languages", "Alignment", "d4", "d6", etc etc, and literally dozens of other terms.

How and why would most of that material even need to be under the OGC? I mean, most of the terms seem innocuous that might be used in any game system. But if all that material is under 1.0a, and 1.0a is being replaced with 1.1, how can TLG still use that material? What makes something OGC? And what if it weren't designated as OGC?


-Fizz

[Grandpa]

How and why would most of that material even need to be under the OGC? I mean, most of the terms seem innocuous that might be used in any game system.
-Fizz

The short answer is, it doesn't need to be. Copyright law and case law covers it. If one were to rewrite the exact wording of stuff but leave the meaning the same (like a spell description) there is no need for the OGL. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Almost nothing in the SRD's can be copyrighted. It is a "dirty little secret". Give me a couple weeks full time and I could rewrite the C&C PHB so that no copyright material from WotC remained but the without changing the game at all. There is some AD&D clone that did this for that game. Or it was Basic D&D. Anyway it was untouchable by Wizard's but the same game under a different name.

[Fizz]

How and why would most of that material even need to be under the OGC? I mean, most of the terms seem innocuous that might be used in any game system.
-Fizz

The short answer is, it doesn't need to be. Copyright law and case law covers it. If one were to rewrite the exact wording of stuff but leave the meaning the same (like a spell description) there is no need for the OGL. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Almost nothing in the SRD's can be copyrighted. It is a "dirty little secret". Give me a couple weeks full time and I could rewrite the C&C PHB so that no copyright material from WotC remained but the without changing the game at all. There is some AD&D clone that did this for that game. Or it was Basic D&D. Anyway it was untouchable by Wizard's but the same game under a different name.

So, if TLG wanted to do the next printing of C&C, they'd have to change all the text of those OGC items to not be verbatim with the SRD, is that right?

-Fizz

[Grandpa]

So, if TLG wanted to do the next printing of C&C, they'd have to change all the text of those OGC items to not be verbatim with the SRD, is that right?

-Fizz

Not necessarily. It is legally up in the air if WotC can cancel the OGL 1.0a (what C&C is released under) as it is a perpetual license. HASBRO already lost a large law suit for violating the Sherman Anti-trust act for trying to squash game competition. Owned by 44 States in Federal court. They MIGHT be stupid enough to try for 2 beatings by a Federal judge.

[Fizz]

Not necessarily. It is legally up in the air if WotC can cancel the OGL 1.0a (what C&C is released under) as it is a perpetual license. HASBRO already lost a large law suit for violating the Sherman Anti-trust act for trying to squash game competition. Owned by 44 States in Federal court. They MIGHT be stupid enough to try for 2 beatings by a Federal judge.

I see. So *if* WotC were to be successful in cancelling 1.0a, then TLG would have to rewrite all material designated as OGC to not be a direct copy from the SDR.

-Fizz

[Grandpa]

I see. So *if* WotC were to be successful in cancelling 1.0a, then TLG would have to rewrite all material designated as OGC to not be a direct copy from the SDR.

-Fizz

Just some of the content. Not all by any means.

[Grandpa]

For those not on Twitter, some, but not all of TL's Tweets regarding the OGL debacle:

Jan 9.
The only thing that maintains our stance in this ttrpg family is the family itself, creators, publishers, players, game masters, their own families, and friends who cheer them on from the sidelines. TLG will not sign this leaked OGL, nor participate in it in any way.

Jan 9.
"Castles & Crusades and all the Siege Engine games are powered by the Siege Engine Attribute Check Mechanic, which is owned entirely by our parent company Chenault & Gray Publishing."

Jan 9.
What little pieces of the SRD leaked its way into our game over the years, we'll quietly remove, and carry on making and publishing games for us all to play.

[Alden]

I've seen a lot of people raising alarm over Paizo saying there won't be a draft and that they won't answer if there will be a morality clause in the ORC license. I'm wondering if TrollLord is going to sign on to Paizo's ORC Gaming license, remain independent or at least wait until the ORC is made public before deciding?

[Grandpa]

I've seen a lot of people raising alarm over Paizo saying there won't be a draft and that they won't answer if there will be a morality clause in the ORC license. I'm wondering if TrollLord is going to sign on to Paizo's ORC Gaming license, remain independent or at least wait until the ORC is made public before deciding?

TLs has no need to sign a license as they aren't licensing any material from another company. See the last two Tweets from TL's that I posted below on the thread. Under US law game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Therefore one could write 3rd party material for any game without a license as long as you avoided the little copyright material that exists. Whether or not TLs plans on doing that I don't know. Probably not as they may not want to support a company like WotC after all this...

[Alden]

TLs has no need to sign a license as they aren't licensing any material from another company. See the last two Tweets from TL's that I posted below on the thread. Under US law game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Therefore one could write 3rd party material for any game without a license as long as you avoided the little copyright material that exists. Whether or not TLs plans on doing that I don't know. Probably not as they may not want to support a company like WotC after all this...

I understand what you are saying, I'm mainly asking because with all the fervor of the other 3pp's trying to find a suitable solution I was just wondering.

[Grandpa]

TLs has no need to sign a license as they aren't licensing any material from another company. See the last two Tweets from TL's that I posted below on the thread. Under US law game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. Therefore one could write 3rd party material for any game without a license as long as you avoided the little copyright material that exists. Whether or not TLs plans on doing that I don't know. Probably not as they may not want to support a company like WotC after all this...

I understand what you are saying, I'm mainly asking because with all the fervor of the other 3pp's trying to find a suitable solution I was just wondering.

Yes, unfortunately most of those people/companies don't know gaming I.P. in depth like the Troll's so think they need a license to do what they are doing...

[Alden]

Yes, unfortunately most of those people/companies don't know gaming I.P. in depth like the Troll's so think they need a license to do what they are doing...

Glad to hear that TL knows what they're doing. I don't know the legalities of all these licenses and what not, I just keep seeing different 3pp and others scrambling to try to cover themselves.

[Fizz]

For what it's worth, there is now a feedback survey for the proposed OGL 1.2, and there is a link to the actual proposal in there. Is it as bad as everyone fears?

Here's Tenkar's take:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/t ... -live.html

and the survey can be found here:
https://t.co/75JmccffF1

-Fizz

[Go0gleplex]

It's still a big honking train wreck. The 'bubble-wrapped society' bandwagon needs stopped. It's past the last station a few hundred klicks back. I thought their comment with the VTT magic missile animation being a no go because that's a video game not a table top game to be absurd in the extreme.

I think I'm in agreement with others; they've already shot themselves in the femoral artery and their idea of triage seems to be a red hot poker where they sit. Doubtful the folks abandoning D&D and WotC will cause them to implode, but it probably will be marginally painful in the wallet. At least until the next batch of suckers get drawn in by 6e. Meh. Since it won't hurt C&C, I'm not gonna worry much about WotC stupidity at this point.

[Persimmon]

They went into detail about their plans on the Twitch show the other night for those who are interested: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1712415518

[maximus]

Took the survey and thanked them for self identifying as someone not wanting my business. Nice and simple.