Swords & Chaos

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finarvyn
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Swords & Chaos

Post by finarvyn »

Looks like a SIEGE based RPG, but not done by the Troll Lords. Not sure if that's good or bad, but they advertise that it's inspired by Karl Edward Wagner and Robert E Howard.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bl ... escription

Anyone know anything about this?
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maximus
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by maximus »

I saw something about it on another forum. I go by a different name (same picture) over there. @Persimmon might be able to provide some information.

Looks pretty cool, although I've been hesitating to buy any new systems.

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Persimmon »

I backed the KS but we haven't seen much since a preview a few months ago. It looked promising, a sort of mash-up of C&C & DCC, with elements of Modiphius Conan thrown in. Spell system based on points, not Vancian. There are corruption & luck mechanics. No clerics, so I'm not sure how healing works. Hopefully not like in 5e. The most recent update, which was about three weeks ago, said that the pdf will be dropping soon, with hard copies available in November. I'm pretty psyched, because I've been itching to do a Sword & Sorcery campaign, but haven't found the right system for my group. Since we know C&C and DCC, but find the latter too clunky, this could fit the bill.

The author also hinted that he's doing something else for Troll Lord, but didn't say what that is.
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by maximus »

This sounds intriguing. Let us know how things look once the pdf is issued.

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Persimmon »

So they dropped a longer preview today and I must say that the game seems pretty awesome on most counts. It's about 85-90% C&C, with a few elements from other games. Here are just a few features:

Standard 6 attribute scores, plus Luck, which is used in extraordinary situations and/or when another siege check doesn't make sense. The default method for generation is roll 4d6 and take 3, arrange to taste. But if you deliberately select lower scores to incur an attribute penalty, you get a boon, which is a situational bonus. You also can temporarily burn attributes (usually Luck) to improve rolls, including spell checks, as in DCC. Burned Luck regenerates d4 points per day.

Seven character classes: Assassin, Barbarian, Fighter, Knight, Ranger, Rogue, & Sorcerer

Most are pretty standard C&C style. The ranger's combat marauder ability applies to demonic & sorcerous beings like golems, elementals, demons, and chaos spawn. The fighter gets a brutal die (as in DCC) to add to attack & damage rolls, plus lots of multiple attacks, and weapon specialization bonuses in addition to ability score bumps, making them complete badasses. So at 10th level you're getting 4 attacks a round and if you specialize in a weapon and have 18 strength, you're rolling d20+3(Str)+4(Specialization)+d12(Brutality die) per attack!

All characters get double hit dice at first level (i.e. your base roll is doubled)

All characters get only 2 primes (I'd house rule this to the standard 3)

You roll on a background table to generate certain personal characteristics for roleplaying. Your homeland gives you a base language and a choice of two traits. For example, if you're from Hyperborea, you can choose resistance to cold (advantage on rolls & immune to cold to -10 degrees); or Black tongued, which gives you facility in some ancient, forbidden language. They provide a map and brief write-ups of the various locations and cultures in the default setting, which resembles Hyboria mixed with Pangea.

Equipment lists are solid and encumbrance is simple. Some decent variations on weapons and armor. Barbarians get extra AC bonuses for not wearing armor. Based on your social class determined in character gen, you spend a set amount of money per week simply living.

Spellcasting is based on memory slots and spells cost a certain number of slots based on complexity, ranging from 1-25 slots. You start with 2 slots at 1st level and get 50 at 10th level. You get bonuses for high Int. So an 18 Int gives you 8 extra memory slots. In most cases you roll a spell check like an attribute check. But spells can also be cast as rituals, which don't burn memory slots, but take longer to cast. Sorcerers can burn attributes to improve spell check rolls. But low rolls on spell checks result in corruption. The more corruption you accumulate, the easier it is to fail your roll and gain more corruption. Once you hit 10 points you go insane and/or become some kind of Chaos beast. Strangely however, even with the memory slot system, the default rule is that you forget any spell once you cast it. To me, this utterly defeats the purpose of a spell point system and I'd house rule that players could cast all known spells until they exhaust their slots. They only give a few spell descriptions in the preview, but they're fine, a flavorful combo of classic D&D spells and genre-specific entries.

They have super streamlined rules for mass combat & sieges, which I love. I like having those once in awhile, but I hate tedious book-keeping.

There are three options for healing since there are no clerics in the game. None are as lame as 5e and drinking various types of alcohol actually heals you in this game! So down that tankard of ale for d3 HP of healing, my friend!

They also have awesome carousing rules wherein you make a luck check to see how your week went. You might even gain XP even though you woke up with no recollection of what happened.

The limited bestiary we saw is solid; plenty of classic S&S monsters, constructs, demons, otherworldly horrors, and a wide variety of human foes from warlords to cultists are statted out. Format is pretty close to what you'd see in C&C.

Finally, they have a website: https://www.blackspirefantasy.com/ and they'll soon be taking pre-orders from those who did not back the KS. Print version will ship at the end of November but pdf will be out before that.
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by maximus »

Sounds like a solid system, thanks for the update!

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Lurker »

maximus wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:23 pm
Sounds like a solid system, thanks for the update!
Rgr that.

Never been a HUGE Conan fan myself, but it does sound like an interesting mash up of rules. I might have to get a copy
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by maximus »

Lurker wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:06 pm
maximus wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:23 pm
Sounds like a solid system, thanks for the update!
Rgr that.

Never been a HUGE Conan fan myself, but it does sound like an interesting mash up of rules. I might have to get a copy
I'm thinking the same now

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by old school gamer »

I am a big Robert E Howard fan, looking forward to this.

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by paladinn »

I'm definitely getting a copy at least of the pdf, when it comes out. There should be a lot of cool stuff to glean. I'm especially interested in beefing up martial characters.

Any update on it?

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Persimmon »

Nothing for a couple weeks, but I'm presuming we'll have the full pdf by the end of this month since the hard copies are supposedly shipping at the end of next month.
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Persimmon »

Finally got my hard copy in the mail today. I must say that I'm mildly disappointed. It's basically house-ruled C&C with a few DCC mechanics ported over, but doesn't go far enough in creating its own distinct flavor or identity. There is a setting map and very brief write-ups on the countries, along with short profiles of some deities and NPCs. But not enough depth.

The character classes are pretty vanilla, though the sorcerer could be kind of cool as they substitute memory slots for spell slots. So each spell costs slots (which should just be called points or mana) and you get so many slots per day. But then, for some reason, the designer kept the Vancian fire & forget mechanic. To me that pretty much cancels out the advantage of spell points. If my sorcerer wants to cast 10 magic missiles a day instead of 3 fireballs or whatever, he should be able to. Then they add spell checks and a corruption mechanic, but exactly how they work is vague. Some spells apparently require checks, like in DCC, but others don't. But unlike DCC, it doesn't look like the level of check determines potency. It just determines if you get corruption or not. There are a few cool new spells, but the vast majority of the spells are just old D&D spells with more evocative names. So "Invisibility 10' Radius" is now "Sphere of Vanishment." "Wall of Ice" is "Cryomancer's Wall," "Wall of Fire" is "Pyromancer's Wall," "Darkness 10' Radius" becomes "Summons of the Void Between Stars," etc. This was done before the OGL debacle, but at least the author is fully covered on this score.

The bestiary is also a mixed bag. Most of the common creatures are basically adopted from their C&C versions. One nice thing is that there are a few Lovecraftian horrors like shoggoth, byaakhee, and deep spawn (deep ones) for which you get C&C stats.

It also has a pretty good section on strongholds, hirelings and specialists and pretty simple rules for mass combat and sieges. There are rules for carousing too where you spend money and roll luck checks to gain experience and maybe adventure hooks. And since there are no clerics in the game, drinking alcohol restores hit points, the stronger the better. [Sorcerers have some healing spells].

Lastly, the artwork and presentation is just okay. Black-and-white, boring font, two column layout. Artwork is okay, but not great. And, as is often the case, some interesting creatures get no picture but they include drawings of things like cats, bats, and crocodiles. I'm pretty sure the average person can visualize those.

So while I'm not sure I'll bother playing it as its own thing, there is some stuff I can port over to my regular C&C game.
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Grandpa »

Sounds like a heavily house ruled C&C. Or at least something I could easily replicate with house rules. Don't think I'd pay much for that.

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Persimmon »

Grandpa wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:49 pm
Sounds like a heavily house ruled C&C. Or at least something I could easily replicate with house rules. Don't think I'd pay much for that.
Sadly; that's pretty much what it turned out to be, which is too bad. Had lots of potential yet the creator proved unable to really do something interesting. With a Sword & Sorcery game there's potential for some different and interesting character classes that could help flavor the setting like pirates, mercenaries, cultists, and the like. But nope, they went with: Assassin, barbarian, fighter, knight, ranger, rogue, and sorcerer. The sorcerer is by far the best and most original here, but still kind of clunky in implementation because they had to keep elements of Vancian spellcasting for some reason.

So I'm just pulling a few things out and porting them over to C&C but we're not going to bother playing it RAW.
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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by Grandpa »

Persimmon wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:59 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:49 pm
Sounds like a heavily house ruled C&C. Or at least something I could easily replicate with house rules. Don't think I'd pay much for that.
Sadly; that's pretty much what it turned out to be, which is too bad. Had lots of potential yet the creator proved unable to really do something interesting. With a Sword & Sorcery game there's potential for some different and interesting character classes that could help flavor the setting like pirates, mercenaries, cultists, and the like. But nope, they went with: Assassin, barbarian, fighter, knight, ranger, rogue, and sorcerer. The sorcerer is by far the best and most original here, but still kind of clunky in implementation because they had to keep elements of Vancian spellcasting for some reason.

So I'm just pulling a few things out and porting them over to C&C but we're not going to bother playing it RAW.
Something like a Stygian based MU would have been cool. Black Lotus driving its power, etc.

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Re: Swords & Chaos

Post by paladinn »

Persimmon wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:59 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:49 pm
Sounds like a heavily house ruled C&C. Or at least something I could easily replicate with house rules. Don't think I'd pay much for that.
Sadly; that's pretty much what it turned out to be, which is too bad. Had lots of potential yet the creator proved unable to really do something interesting. With a Sword & Sorcery game there's potential for some different and interesting character classes that could help flavor the setting like pirates, mercenaries, cultists, and the like. But nope, they went with: Assassin, barbarian, fighter, knight, ranger, rogue, and sorcerer. The sorcerer is by far the best and most original here, but still kind of clunky in implementation because they had to keep elements of Vancian spellcasting for some reason.

So I'm just pulling a few things out and porting them over to C&C but we're not going to bother playing it RAW.
I got the game and was pretty disappointed too. It really is straight-up C&C with a Little more flavor for sorcerers and no clerics or paladins. Because it has to be dark, ya know.

It's a resource at most.

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