Adventurers Backback Kickstarter

[capmarvel]

Only 303 backers for the Adventurers Backpack Kickstarter (so far)?

How do we get C&C to be "more popular"? It's a great game - would be nice to see it grow and get out to more folks.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/67 ... =user_menu

[Treebore]

Simple to plan, hard to execute. We need to encourage people to give it a try. Half probably won't like it, but the other half probably will.

[alcyone]

The more you run it for people who have not played it, the more sales I guess. Especially if you run it for DMs.

There is so much competition and so many games that are 90% similar to C&C, that it's hard to sell the system and the accessories built on it. The open game license cuts both ways.

But twice the funding goal is nothing to sneeze at.

[Rigon]

I didn't back it, mainly because funds are tight right now and with Christmas coming, I just couldn't justify it. I will pick up a copy at some point though.

R-

[pawndream]

I have went in on several TLG Kickstarters (Three Sisters, HH, Aihrde, Codices, Amazing Adventures, Victorious), but I haven't pulled the trigger on ABP. I guess I am just not that excited about a book of new classes, spells and prepackaged equipment lists and their associated cards.

As others mentioned, there are many D&D variants out there competing for playing time...many of which differ only slightly. C&C is basically d20-ized AD&D with a universal dice mechanic. Gamers have many options to emulate simplified AD&D style games, so it's not that C&C is a tough sell for people to play; it's that you can do the same thing with many different games. One of many games in a very small, niche subsector of the RPG hobby...all great games and all competing for play time.

All this to say, I don't think ABP is likely to be the "oomph" to get new players into C&C. I see ABP more as a product more likely to appeal to existing C&C players looking for new options.

As to how to get more people into C&C?

Great CKs running fun, exciting games is probably the best way to get people interested/invested in the game. Something like organized play. Not just at Cons, because only a small number of hardcore gamers go to these...and their shelves are already groaning under the weight of many games. I am talking about regular organized play sessions at FLGSs, catered to absolute beginners. These would need to be marketed through FLGSs, social media (Facebook, G+, Meet-up, etc.) to spread the word to people who are interested in trying out RPGs for the first time.

Even then, you're still competing with many great games.

[Treebore]

Yeah, we CK's are going to be the ones getting new people interested, and even then, its only going to be people interested in a rules lite system. Believe it or not, a lot of people like crunch. I used to, but I stopped enjoying tormenting my brain. Like as much as I love Shadowrun, I really can't stand its crunch anymore, even of the older editions I started playing it in.

[Spade Marlowe]

Steve made a post on the C&C Society/Knights of the crusade forums, asking for some input on the next printing of the PHB that could boost sales.

http://knightsofthecrusade.com/node/98

[Captain_K]

KISS should apply to the book. If the game is easy and fast and simple don't add more, simplify and tidy what's there. Hate the crunch, simplify anything crunchy, like my pet peeve: experience, stop making folks count the hp of the monsters killed, and end the experience for every copper, etc. Keeping track of experience for most is not fun nor core to the game. Aside: We do simplified experience now and I'm never going back to counting and tracking that minutia again, characters have exactly the same experience requirements, just the book keeping is highly simplified for players and CKs. System works great.

Encumbrance and equipment, other areas that need simplification, take the best from back pack AFTER you finish it. If you're going to raid the CKG into the PH, be picky and don't take it all.. otherwise why buy the CKG? I would not go all the way to epic level, but possibly expand the PH to 15 or 18 or even 20th level then expand the CKG a bit more when next it gets reprinted. To the level needed to cast 9th lvl spells seems right.

Focus on one thing and get it done. Have telecoms and mini roll tests with your newest ideas with your oldest outsiders who's ideas might differ. Any place folks are house ruling might be areas to improve.. learn from their inputs, they are your customers, fans, supporters and fellow gamers (might be an annoying, frustrating undertaking, but might be worth the trouble).

The new PH should not obsolete the older editions, but compliment or expand ideally, even give alternates to things like experience, encumbrance, starting languages for humans, etc.

OK, I'm going to fall off my soap box now.. best of luck.. but I for one will likely not get many of my crew to buy a new PHs "edition" unless it's a must.

But on the cost front: Please make sure the pdf is printer friendly. Print, bind, go. In full color. That is the low cost option. A CnC three ring binder with nice art that could hold anything could double as the low cost option for the PH, buy the pdf, print at home, and put in binder. Keep the font black and white, low gloss, rich colors and the best cotton level of paper you can afford. I printed books on the highest cotton content paper out there, the book is half the weight and the feel is amazing. At least for your high end leather bound books, use the cotton paper, I would pay extra for that. Three option for this PH: PDF with option to buy a binder, your base print option, then high end leather bound with cotton paper, choose when you order in kick starter and possibly always (while supplies last).

[Treebore]

It is disconcerting that Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcers of Hyboria has over 700 backers. Then again, its a new compiled HC core rule book versus an unnecessary accessory book.

[capmarvel]

Am I showing my age by asking for a larger font?


Also - just looked at C&C Kickstarters. Number of backers: 323, 202, 225, 288, 179, 216, 446, 314, 350, 244, 685, 338, 283, 184. 223, 166.

So- never a large # of KS buyers.

Many factors I'm sure - some may be pricing. The C&C PHB is $29.99 for the PDF. I can get the very similar (and more complete book) Blood & Treasure PDF for just $9.99.

[alcyone]

Am I showing my age by asking for a larger font?

You're showing your age by thinking that books are made out of paper! PDFs are scalable.

[alcyone]

It is disconcerting that Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcers of Hyboria has over 700 backers. Then again, its a new compiled HC core rule book versus an unnecessary accessory book.

I backed it, and I like most of the art less than the original, which is my favorite art in any game. Though the Peter Mullen stuff is always good. But having it in one hardcover is worth it (if I ever get to play it...)

[capmarvel]

You're showing your age by thinking that books are made out of paper! PDFs are scalable.

What is a "PDF"?

[Treebore]

It is disconcerting that Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcers of Hyboria has over 700 backers. Then again, its a new compiled HC core rule book versus an unnecessary accessory book.

I backed it, and I like most of the art less than the original, which is my favorite art in any game. Though the Peter Mullen stuff is always good. But having it in one hardcover is worth it (if I ever get to play it...)

I backed it too. So that makes two...

[X the Mystic]

I'm new to C&C, but have been playing varieties of the world's most popular rpg since 1982 (but was on hiatus during the 3e and 4e eras). I tried running 5e for a year plus, but the characters and monsters played too much like super heroes/video games for my tastes. Then turned to C&C and like it a great deal so far.

Anyway, I have not backed the Adventurers Backpack so far in part to how it's being pitched ( as the C&C equivalent of Unearthed Arcana) and the proposed content. UA to me was a mixed bag. There was some good stuff there, but a lot of fluff (Comliness) and was the book where I see as the origin of a lot of the power creep that kept escalating in one way or another. Hard to know for sure, but a number of the new classes the Trolls are describing sound a bit redundant (thief, magic-user, and archer). Also, having an assortment of premade backpacks can be handy, but 34? That feels excessive and probably takes up page count that could be better utilized. After all, other than at character creation, will that be used at any other time? New spells and rules for counter spells, etc. sounds intriguing. Personally, what I'd like to see is a good alchemist and ideas for minor and major alchemical mixtures, potions, dusts, herbal remedies, etc. not sure if that's already been done in another C&C book already.

Anyway, if it hits the shelf at my local game store, I'll probably buy it, but for now I'm satisfied with simplicity of the core books.

[capmarvel]

I bailed out of the AS&SH Kickstarter. Realized I had the original and never did anything but skim it so what were the odds I'd do anything more with the new one?

Also found my Barbarians of Lemuria which I actually help proofread...haven't done anything with that either. I see a pattern here.....

[Lord Dynel]

I'm new to C&C, but have been playing varieties of the world's most popular rpg since 1982 (but was on hiatus during the 3e and 4e eras). I tried running 5e for a year plus, but the characters and monsters played too much like super heroes/video games for my tastes. Then turned to C&C and like it a great deal so far.

Anyway, I have not backed the Adventurers Backpack so far in part to how it's being pitched ( as the C&C equivalent of Unearthed Arcana) and the proposed content. UA to me was a mixed bag. There was some good stuff there, but a lot of fluff (Comliness) and was the book where I see as the origin of a lot of the power creep that kept escalating in one way or another. Hard to know for sure, but a number of the new classes the Trolls are describing sound a bit redundant (thief, magic-user, and archer). Also, having an assortment of premade backpacks can be handy, but 34? That feels excessive and probably takes up page count that could be better utilized. After all, other than at character creation, will that be used at any other time? New spells and rules for counter spells, etc. sounds intriguing. Personally, what I'd like to see is a good alchemist and ideas for minor and major alchemical mixtures, potions, dusts, herbal remedies, etc. not sure if that's already been done in another C&C book already.

Anyway, if it hits the shelf at my local game store, I'll probably buy it, but for now I'm satisfied with simplicity of the core books.

Welcome aboard, X! I hope you find C&C to be a welcome change from D&D.

I guess it depends on how new you actually are, but if you're brand spanking new, it might be a good idea to pass on the Adventurer's Backpack, at least for the time being. I'm not trying to take food off the Trolls' tables (because I love dem guys!) but the PHB has plenty of options for you. Seven races, 13 classes, and rules for multi-classing give you plenty of character creation options. My advice to a person new to C&C (or any rpg, really) - not that you're asking for it - is to keep it simple for a while. Not getting into the Kickstarter doesn't mean you can't buy it later. And as an aside, I agree with you on the "backpacks" and some of the classes (especially the ones you mentioned) have been detailed in other products (but not widely distributed ones).

I bailed out of the AS&SH Kickstarter. Realized I had the original and never did anything but skim it so what were the odds I'd do anything more with the new one?

Also found my Barbarians of Lemuria which I actually help proofread...haven't done anything with that either. I see a pattern here.....

I did, too. I was about to pull the trigger in the AS&SH, and at the last minute I bailed. I backed the ABP, which is the first C&C KS I've backed since Aihrde. I was a little put off by the amount of KS projects the Trolls were doing, especially starting ones before the previous ones were completely fulfilled. But that's my personal gripe.

[Tadhg]

Welcome X the Mystic!

Enjoy the game,

Rhu.

[alcyone]

Someone who has played both games could maybe make a 5e->C&C conversion document like Goodman Games made for C&C and AD&D and 3.5e/Pathfinder.

[agent_fej]

I think that the best way to get more players into C&C (and ultimately buying C&C products) is for the Trolls to provide a free copy of the rules as a PDF. All or most of the prominent retroclones, as well as D&D 5e are doing this in some fashion. I'm not saying that the Trolls should just give the full game away, although that is an option (e.g., Swords and Wizardry). Here are some options:

1. Free no-art version of the PHB
2. Free B&W version of the PHB
3. Free "Basic" game that has the 4 core races/classes, as well as a sampling of monsters and CK advice.
4. The whole PHB

This would allow CKs to recruit players but pointing to a free version of the rules before committing $30 for the PHB. Right now, it's hard to get folks to spend money on a game they might not like. I've wanted to run a classic Greyhawk campaign at my FLGS using C&C. But, I'll probably end up going with S&W because the rules are free. Yes, some players will probably just stick to the free PDF, but not all of them. Some will buy the book if they end up liking the game and want to stick with the campaign. Those who don't weren't going to buy the book anyway. No sales lost.

The other benefits include: being able to point to the free version of the game when recommending it in various forums on the internet. Again, folks are more likely to try something that they can preview for free vs. spending money for the PHB and M&T. My guess you'll gain more new customers buying the physical books than you will lose by folks sticking with the freebie rules. Another benefit is being able to point the free rules when the inevitable internet conversation about C&C begin to revolve around common misconceptions about the game. It would be great to be able to say, "That's not actually true, go to [some URL], download the rules, and see for yourself." It seems like every conversation about C&C is about the editing or perceived flaws in the Siege Engine.

[alcyone]

I think that the best way to get more players into C&C (and ultimately buying C&C products) is for the Trolls to provide a free copy of the rules as a PDF. All or most of the prominent retroclones, as well as D&D 5e are doing this in some fashion. I'm not saying that the Trolls should just give the full game away, although that is an option (e.g., Swords and Wizardry).

I agree. Stuff like the S&W SRD online (http://www.d20swsrd.com/) means anyone with a phone, tablet, or laptop can join your game, and when it gets unwieldly, buy a book, hopefully getting what they need eventually to become a referee if that is their aspiration, and repeat with a new group.

Note that there used to be a quickstart version with the 4 classes. I found it to be of limited utility. I think instead of limiting the scope in terms of options, (if you have to limit it at all), it's better to limit it in terms of level. It only needs to be enough to make a character and refer to the combat rules, and look up your spells.

Someone made a page that had some of that stuff, but I think they took it down or stopped working on it. The Trolls made a paid site ($5.99/mo) that has most of the rules (http://www.tlgportal.com/). Unfortunately I don't think it would be a simple matter to just open part of it for free due to the design.

As far as editing, at least we can say 6th printing PHB is the best yet. When 7th comes around I don't know if it will open to the community to nitpick again, but I have high hopes the gains we've made will be preserved.

As far as SIEGE, I wrote up a quick explanation of the CLs and how they affect probability (http://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtop ... 15#p237815). Maybe someone could use it as a starting point for an explainer, maybe with graphs. People might still hate the curve it creates but maybe they can at least visualize it. And the 5e advantage/disadvantage system has a weird curve too.

People need to remember too, SIEGE is for ability checks and saves. Ability checks weren't well-attested before 3.5e, many people got on fine without them or with a roll-under mechanic. Saving throws weren't that hard to figure out to begin with, just required some table lookup. They aren't an insignificant part of the game, but they aren't a universal mechanic for the whole system (i.e. combat uses BtH or HD and roll-over-AC, not SIEGE). It can be replaced with a different save system and a different ability check system (though if you hate SIEGE, it's sensible to play something else, though there are variants, like Primary/Secondary/Tertiary).

I think about why I play C&C more than any other game, and it's mostly dumb luck: it was there right when I needed it and was exactly what I wanted (3.5e without feats, skills, or multiclassed "builds"). Playing it made me revisit a lot of other systems and retroclones, and I find I am so familiar with C&C now that I often start out playing something else and coming back to C&C. It didn't hurt that Gary Gygax was onboard with it. Not to mention the online games I have found here on the forums. But now there are so many good options, not all of them D&D-like either, that I don't know what the selling point is for newcomers. Now with a new Codex, if you like Aihrde you will come to C&C, if you like Haunted Highlands, or the many C&C adventures available, If those can be the driver for new sales, then free rules in some form make sense.

I can't imagine how frustrating it is for TLG to hear us armchair RPG Publishers speculating about how the RPG market works. I'm always glad when they chime in and tell us how it really is.

[Captain_K]

I backed more as a subscription to good efforts by the group who made the game. Same for the Norse Codex. As good as the books are, or I hope will be, I will likely never use much out of them. But to keep the game going, to keep them employed, they need income... thus I backed. If I get five good pages out of it, then its only $10 a page.

Loyalty to CnC or I have to go back to "DnDi Version 6.9.2a)".. that is my simple way of looking at it.

[Treebore]

I think that the best way to get more players into C&C (and ultimately buying C&C products) is for the Trolls to provide a free copy of the rules as a PDF. All or most of the prominent retroclones, as well as D&D 5e are doing this in some fashion. I'm not saying that the Trolls should just give the full game away, although that is an option (e.g., Swords and Wizardry).

I agree. Stuff like the S&W SRD online (http://www.d20swsrd.com/) means anyone with a phone, tablet, or laptop can join your game, and when it gets unwieldly, buy a book, hopefully getting what they need eventually to become a referee if that is their aspiration, and repeat with a new group.

Note that there used to be a quickstart version with the 4 classes. I found it to be of limited utility. I think instead of limiting the scope in terms of options, (if you have to limit it at all), it's better to limit it in terms of level. It only needs to be enough to make a character and refer to the combat rules, and look up your spells.

Someone made a page that had some of that stuff, but I think they took it down or stopped working on it. The Trolls made a paid site ($5.99/mo) that has most of the rules (http://www.tlgportal.com/). Unfortunately I don't think it would be a simple matter to just open part of it for free due to the design.

The Trolls have even made a couple of self contained modules, the one with Green Sky in its title, and another that does double duty for C&C and Amazing Adventures. So they have made baby steps in this direction, so hopefully they will eventually go all the way to an SRD type free rules set. Which would make sense, since their own product is based off a free SRD. Unfortunately Trolls are a stubborn lot, and can take a very long time to come around to the obvious.

[Treebore]

Not by any means sure, because I never kept any kind of track, etc... but hasn't this KS turned out to be their highest funded?

[pawndream]

I believe Three Sisters was highest funded. Can't remember what Aihrde ended up with, but I think it was close to this one.

[Treebore]

I believe Three Sisters was highest funded. Can't remember what Aihrde ended up with, but I think it was close to this one.

Oh yeah, just looked it up, they got like $83,000 on the 3 sisters.

[Omote]

I was really happy with this KS. Of course I like the idea of the book, and the amount of goodies you get with it makes pretty much any pledge a total bargain. I hope this book pans out, on, or near on-time, and I will be happy.

~O

[Lord Dynel]

I was really happy with this KS. Of course I like the idea of the book, and the amount of goodies you get with it makes pretty much any pledge a total bargain. I hope this book pans out, on, or near on-time, and I will be happy.

~O

My thought exactly, sir.

Now that it's ended, I was a little surprised it didn't crest $30k.

[Omote]

Now that it's ended, I was a little surprised it didn't crest $30k.

I'm not surprised at all. It's a nice addition to the C&C game, but TLG's track record for getting KS out on time is really bad. That alone is keeping tens of thousands of dollars away from them. Frankly, people are fed up with that. I can't blame them. The good thing though, is that even though very late, TLG has got the product out to the consumers. For TLG's sake, I hope they work long and hard on the Adventurer's Backpack in getting it out on reasonably near time-frame.

I think TLG is backed up with at least 3-5 Kickstarters at this point, not counting the ABP.

~O