Haste & Slow Combat Affects

[Captain_K]

I know to read the PH description of the spells affecting move and attacks in a round, but are there other affects to BtH, AC or such? I kind of recall someone who is under the affect of slow is also easier to hit by +2 and haste might make them harder to hit.. might be a previous game I'm recalling.. I did a quick glance at CnC books I had handy and found nothing.

Am I overlooking anything?

[Arduin]

All the effects are in the spell description I believe.

[Treebore]

All the effects are in the spell description I believe.

I believe so too. I think in C&C they only increase or decrease speed/movement, and reduce or increase attacks by one step. I don't recall their being an effect on AC. In C&C, especially when Combat Maneuvers are used, that movement being increased is a HUGE advantage for a couple of the maneuvers, and a huge penalty when your slowed.

[Arduin]

All the effects are in the spell description I believe.

I believe so too. I think in C&C they only increase or decrease speed/movement, and reduce or increase attacks by one step. I don't recall their being an effect on AC. In C&C, especially when Combat Maneuvers are used, that movement being increased is a HUGE advantage for a couple of the maneuvers, and a huge penalty when your slowed.

Oh, yes good points.

(I just searched the PDF PHB and found nothing outside the spell section)

[Captain_K]

Yeah, I could not find anything either, but I had this nagging recall of a combat table stating, "opponent slowed +2 to hit them" or "opponent under affects of haste -2 to their AC".. but I think that is from a 3.X version or some such. Thanks for checking, going to need this in a week or two.

[Traveller]

Definitely 3.x.

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Keep in mind that if you actually keep track of character age, you need to keep track every time haste is cast, as the target of the haste spell ages one year for each casting.

[Captain_K]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

Was there ever a chance for a system shock roll with the old haste kind of like, age a year AND a chance for a heart attack??? Seems fitting.

[Treebore]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

Was there ever a chance for a system shock roll with the old haste kind of like, age a year AND a chance for a heart attack??? Seems fitting.

I think there is something like that in one of the Optional 2E D&D rule books. Been a looooooong time since I read the entry, so could definitely (most likely) be wrong.

[Arduin]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

That's why Boots of Speed are better. No downside.

[Arduin]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

That's why Boots of Speed are better. No downside.

[Captain_K]

But the fun of the ring is THERE IS a down side,, I kind of like things to have a cost.. a charge or some limit to "use it only when you need it", but yeah, boots of speed are seriously power items.

[Treebore]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

That's why Boots of Speed are better. No downside.

They only let you MOVE as per the Haste spell, not attack, so thats OK.

[serleran]

A weapon of speed is better than boots, the spell, a potion, and etc. Except when the Castle Keeper allows multiple sources to combine.

[Arduin]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

That's why Boots of Speed are better. No downside.

They only let you MOVE as per the Haste spell, not attack, so thats OK.

Ah yes. True that.

[gabriellyon]

I heard the codpiece of speed isn't very good. Just a rumor mind you...

[Kayolan]

How about boots of speed hasting a character who is under the effects of a fly spell? Thoughts?

[Arduin]

How about boots of speed hasting a character who is under the effects of a fly spell? Thoughts?

As your legs don't propel one through the air I'd say no effect. But, it would look funny to see the legs flailing at double speed.

[Go0gleplex]

How about boots of speed hasting a character who is under the effects of a fly spell? Thoughts?

That wouldn't work since the boots are not actually being used while flying. The flying movement replaces the ground movement which is what the boots are enchanted to increase. At least that's how I'd rule it at this point.

It's like a ring of regeneration or protection. Sure, the enchantment is there but until the conditions to cause it to work are in place nothing happens.

[Treebore]

How about boots of speed hasting a character who is under the effects of a fly spell? Thoughts?

It effects movement as per the Haste spell, so I would say yes. The Haste spell doesn't differentiate between land, water, or air movement, it just specifies "base" movement and uses land movement as the base line example, not as an indication of the only type/kind of movement the spell effects.

However, I also think it would be perfectly reasonable to create a house rule to clarify things...

[Traveller]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

Was there ever a chance for a system shock roll with the old haste kind of like, age a year AND a chance for a heart attack??? Seems fitting.

One area the Trolls and I don't agree on is the consequences of magical aging, petrification (sic), polymorph, raise dead, and resurrection. In AD&D, all of these things required a system shock roll, and if you failed the roll you died, permanently. If you succeeded, you suffered no ill effects when it came to anything but raise dead and resurrection. With a successful system shock roll for raise dead and resurrection, you then had to make a resurrection survival roll. If you made that roll, CON was then permanently reduced by 1, which lowered your chances of survival the next time death occurred.

The Trolls have chosen to not bring a version of the system shock mechanic into the game. Thankfully, the spells that should have consequences when cast do have them in Castles & Crusades, but without the risk of permanent death to go along with the consequences the spells don't seem balanced. It's almost as if these spells are the Castles & Crusades equivalent of the Magic: The Gathering card Ancestral Recall.

I exaggerate in comparing the Castles & Crusades versions of these spells to Ancestral Recall, as they are not broken like that card, but simply unbalanced. However, that imbalance I feel leads to a situation where the spell isn't really taken seriously, because there's no risk to casting it. Think about it. In AD&D, casting a wish for a million bucks not only aged you three years, but could permanently kill you. Thus, would you wish for a million bucks knowing that the wish would not only be literally fulfilled*, but could potentially be lethal? I know I wouldn't, because casting a wish is serious business. It's the most powerful spell a caster can have, and to be able to cast it suffering nothing more than a few wrinkles opens the door to frivolous uses of a spell that can reshape the flow of time itself. That to me is wrong.

*Cue Geico commercial from someone who read Dragon magazine

[Arduin]

Kind of a terrible thing to do to new guys, but a Ring of Haste... let them use it till it kills them...

Was there ever a chance for a system shock roll with the old haste kind of like, age a year AND a chance for a heart attack??? Seems fitting.

One area the Trolls and I don't agree on is the consequences of magical aging, petrification (sic), polymorph, raise dead, and resurrection. In AD&D, all of these things required a system shock roll, and if you failed the roll you died, permanently. If you succeeded, you suffered no ill effects when it came to anything but raise dead and resurrection. With a successful system shock roll for raise dead and resurrection, you then had to make a resurrection survival roll. If you made that roll, CON was then permanently reduced by 1, which lowered your chances of survival the next time death occurred.

The Trolls have chosen to not bring a version of the system shock mechanic into the game. Thankfully, the spells that should have consequences when cast do have them in Castles & Crusades, but without the risk of permanent death to go along with the consequences the spells don't seem balanced. It's almost as if these spells are the Castles & Crusades equivalent of the Magic: The Gathering card Ancestral Recall.

I exaggerate in comparing the Castles & Crusades versions of these spells to Ancestral Recall, as they are not broken like that card, but simply unbalanced. However, that imbalance I feel leads to a situation where the spell isn't really taken seriously, because there's no risk to casting it. Think about it. In AD&D, casting a wish for a million bucks not only aged you three years, but could permanently kill you. Thus, would you wish for a million bucks knowing that the wish would not only be literally fulfilled*, but could potentially be lethal? I know I wouldn't, because casting a wish is serious business. It's the most powerful spell a caster can have, and to be able to cast it suffering nothing more than a few wrinkles opens the door to frivolous uses of a spell that can reshape the flow of time itself. That to me is wrong.

*Cue Geico commercial from someone who read Dragon magazine

When was the last time you read the C&C Wish spell?

"The caster of a wish spell always ages due to the
debilitating effects of the spell upon the body. The caster
must make a constitution save (challenge level 9) or age 3
years. Success means the caster ages only 1 year."

[Traveller]

Did you actually read my post or are you talking out your a** again? Casting a wish spell is serious business. It should be risky, and magical aging as the sole side effect of casting the spell provides too little risk for the reward. Quoting the text of the wish spell is irrelevant to the entire point, which is that magical aging alone is not enough of a deterrent to prevent the frivolous use of a powerful spell.

If you cannot understand that concept, then I guess it sucks to be you.

[Arduin]

Did you actually read my post or are you talking out your a** again? Casting a wish spell is serious business. It should be risky, and magical aging as the sole side effect of casting the spell provides too little risk for the reward. Quoting the text of the wish spell is irrelevant to the entire point, which is that magical aging alone is not enough of a deterrent to prevent the frivolous use of a powerful spell.

If you cannot understand that concept, then I guess it sucks to be you.

Yes, I read it. I just thought that the spell had changed with a recent printing and was curious as to the time period. Don't be such an insufferable dick head. I know it comes easy to a coward like yourself behind a keyboard.

[Go0gleplex]

Yeah. I'll stick by a no go with that.

The boots affect movement rate as per haste. Haste doubles the creature's movement rate. I would interpret that as their natural movement rate. Not doubling the magic of another spell, in the case of fly, it is given as 90'. The wording of fly seems to infer that the spell takes precedent over any other speed with a defined limit that replaces whatever other movement the creature has while utilizing flight.

The wording on haste specifies the movement rate of the creature itself. Not another spell or effect. At least, that's my logic train on this.

But like Tree noted. This really is open for a house rule to set how it is run for that campaign/game.

[Treebore]

May I remind a couple of people in this thread we expect people to act like ADULTS around here. If you cannot post without nasty insults, don't post until you calm down enough to post without such insults. Simple as that.

[serleran]

By the Rule of Cool, a haste effect can modify magical movement, provided it does not affect the spell itself as the description clearly says it does not modify casting. So, to be simple, I would allow it to work with fly because I think it would be fun and an interesting use, but it would have no impact on feather fall. But, that would be quite humorous.

[Traveller]

May I remind a couple of people in this thread we expect people to act like ADULTS around here. If you cannot post without nasty insults, don't post until you calm down enough to post without such insults. Simple as that.

When did you become a moderator?

Seriously, the problem has been taken care of, and I am far better off for it.

[Captain_K]

When two posters are flaming each other under the affects of a slow spell do they j u s t t y p e r e a l l y s l o w? Or do their posts miss each other and thus are undable to get mad at each other? Haste might make them type so fast that their whole exchange is over before the rest of us see it and the moderator will remove it and we'll never know it happened.. either way, I'm thinking that Treebore needs to get the honorary "wand of flaming haste"