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I would like everyone to contribute to this thread 
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Mogrl

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Post I would like everyone to contribute to this thread
because I want to make an official unofficial document we can all copy and paste any time we run into someone who asks us, "Why C&C? Why do you choose it above all other systems?" In particular 3E, of course.

If it has the weight of a couple of dozen DM's behnd it instead of just one of our opinions, people may take it a lot more seriously than "just my opinion." So when I compile this I am also going to list everyones screen name as co-writer/contributor, to give the "opinion" as much weight as possible.

What made me come up with this idea is I was going to post a "Interested in C&C" thread in the OGL section of ENWorld. When I was trying to think of how to explain it/sell it the thought of us doing a "group sell" on C&C occurred to me.

So give me some reasons, as short and concise as possible, for me to compile into a cohesive document, which I will post here for you to help edit and change wording to clarify or better state things that I confuse/screw up, etc...

Thanks!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:56 pm
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Ulthal

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1. A DM's dream to run.

2. Bigger player base. If anyone has played any version of D&D, it is old hat to them. It is easier to get older players and younger players together with C&C. Where trying to bring younger players to an older D&D or vise versa can be difficult.

3. Because Mikes Hard Lemonade says so.
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Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:21 pm
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Lore Drake

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1. Faster gameplay

2. Less prep time.

3. Easy to houserule

4. Backwards compatable with earlier editions of D&D.
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Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:33 pm
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Ulthal
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1. Fast and exciting comabt.

2. Affordable books.

3. Steady supply of published modules.

4. Old school feel, without THAC0.

5. A company run by friendly gamers and not busines people.
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Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:43 pm
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Ulthal

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Quote:
Combat_Kyle wrote:
5. A company run by friendly gamers and not busines people.



I have never known a troll to be friendly......
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:04 am
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Red Cap

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Why C&C?

My first love was Classic D&D. When I grew disillusioned with 3.X D&D (as so many of us did), I went back to my gaming roots, to my first RPG ever.

When I heard about C&C being made, I thought it was a great idea - at least good enough for me to buy modules for and convert to the Rules Cyclopedia. After all, if it was based on the OGL of a game that let me down, so how good could it be?

Well, the more I read about it, the more it began to catch up with the RC in terms of my personal favoritism. When the boxed set was finally released, I eagerly snapped one up to see how it played (read: to dismiss it). I loved it.

1) The unified mechanic. I never cared about unified anything until now. After all, different mechanics need different rules to work optimally, right? C&C and the SIEGE engine handled things so well, I started to wonder why Thieves needed d100 to use their skills, Clerics needed 2d6 to Turn Undead, Saving Throws went up while Ability Checks went down, doors opened on high rolls of d6, and Elves found secret doors on low rolls of d6. The SIEGE engine, while strange to hear about the first time, plays out so smoothly, you've mastered the idea of it within 5 minutes.

2) Simplicity in play. I was one of the rare ones who never thought THAC0/To-Hit or Saving Throw charts were so bad. Sure, they took up two and a half pages on my DM screen, but they were vital after all. What's that? You say with AC flipped, you can use a single number (the monsters HD) as a bonus to all to hit and saving throw rolls? SOLD. Combats have never felt so fluid and natural, with the rulebook only being cracked maybe once or twice per game. This of course benefits prep time, which I'm proud to say is at an all time low...

3) And finally, compatibility with all of my D&D stuff. ALL of it, even the 3.X stuff. Wow. Even WotC couldn't do that, and they're a multi-million dollar company!

Pat yourself on the bat Trolls, you did good. While Classic D&D will always hold a special place in my heart, C&C has become my game of choice and the one I hope to introduce my kids to someday.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:41 am
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Ulthal

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* It's the closest thing to Gygaxian D&D since OAD&D.

* Gary Gygax approves.

* It is the rules system that Gary Gygax is using to publish his long awaited Castle Greyhawk adventure, under the name Castle Zagyg.

* Castle Zagyg is being developed with Gary by his old Greyhawk Co-DM, Robert Kuntz.

--Ghul


Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:49 am
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Lore Drake

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1. Great support by the publishers.

2. They really take interest in fan opinions.

3. A storyteller's RPG system. - If you don't like storytelling don't play C&C.

4. It gives the power back to the DM!

5. It emphasizes the archtypes of classical fantasy. Because of this stories created in C&C tend to be more of a universal nature that everyone can relate to.
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:57 am
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Unkbartig

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What Mepo said; I'd just add:

* Customization. With the Primes system, you can develop a vast array of characters (dexterous fighters, Intelligent Barbarians, Strong Wizards) with a plethora of abilities without the headache of either a skills or feat system. Want a fighter but very Dexterous? Give 'em a Dex prime...done. Want a Wizard who benches 200+ lbs? Give 'e a Strength Prime. Easy, and virtually no paperwork!

* I freely credit this theory to Serleran, but in C&C any character can *try* anything. As opposed to OOP A/D&D where a Fighter can never attempt to Hide in Shadows, or a Mu to break open a door, or such; in C&C you can try anything and have a chance (though some albeit small) of doing it. Not like D20 either, where if you don't have the skill or feat you can't do it. If it makes sense for your character, roll the check with the CK's appropriately determined modifier and there you go!
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:59 am
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Battle Stag
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C&C is the culmination of what made old-school D&D so great during the formidable years of the gaming hobby and the fantastic, streamlined rules of modern fantasy RPG players.

C&C is relavant because of it's homage to classic and modern versions of the greatest game on earth.

.....................................................Omote

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:16 am
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Mogrl

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Wow! This is going to be good!

I had another idea, how about we describe an in game "scene" that really impressed you in terms of the SIEGE engine, or just brought home to you that C&C is "the game" for you. This way, not only do they get a specific example of why you like/love C&C, but get some illustrations of how to use the games rules, or adapt them, depending on your example.

sound good, or too overboard?

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:23 am
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Clang lives!
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What Maliki, Meepo and Sieg said. Plus it revitalized my interest and love for a RPGs.

R-
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:33 am
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Lore Drake
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C&C is the resurrection of 1st Edition AD&D only with some brilliant improvements that avoid the necessity of referencing to hit, saving throw and thieving skills charts, thereby reducing the amount of time required to play through battles. The Troll Lords have done themselves proud in producing a game that once again makes it easy for new RPG gamers to pick up the game, take it home and begin playing in no time at all. And for the game master, known as a "CK" in C&C, the system works like a charm and is a true pleasure to run. In 25 years, I haven't seen a game that can rekindle the spark in an avid gamer's eye quite like C&C does. For these reasons and others, C&C is without a doubt the most entertaining RPG the industry has to offer.

Usually, when people ask me why I play C&C instead of 3rd Edition, I just say, "Pull up a chair and grab a character," then four hours later, they ask where to buy the books.

Brian Miller
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:12 am
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Ulthal

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C&C borrows the best approaches from all the various D&D editions and combines them, along with a few new twists, into an awesome game.

- Classes are strong archetypes, like classic D&D.

- Classes have different experience advancement points, like all pre-3E versions of D&D. I like this approach. I think it's easier (and works better) than trying to carefully balance every class so that each one is equally powerful at every level.

- Races are separate from classes, like AD&D and 3E.

- High AC is better, and you have an attack bonus and a target AC, like 3E.

- Characters are not restricted by lists of skills and feats, and can attempt just about any action they like, like classic D&D without general skills, or like AD&D without non-weapon proficiencies. More on this, below.

- Prime Attributes and the SIEGE engine make it easy to tweak an archetype (dextrous fighter, intelligent fighter, etc.) in a way that has a real game impact, but doesn't require a lot of overhead.

- C&C is great for the GM who has old D&D and AD&D material lying around. It can be used with ease, with the trivial conversion of AC and movement being done on the fly. 3E material can also be used, although the conversion can be a bit more involved.

- C&C is great for the GM who wants to run some of the "old classics" like the Giant modules, the D-series, the Temple of Elemental Evil, et cetera. Part of the charm of the classics is their old school feel; C&C will capture that effortlessly, because you can use the PDFs or old modules without any in-depth conversion, and without changing their "old school" nature at all.

- C&C is great for GM preparation. Like older D&D editions, stat blocks are short and sweet. When creating NPCs and monsters, there's no need to spend time on calculations of skills, feats, templates, prestige classes, level-appropriate equipment, etc.

- C&C combat is fast, but can be as tactical as you want to get. The system will work equally well with or without miniatures and a battleboard.

- C&C is easy to customize. It starts out on a fairly basic level, and it's easy to add to. For example, if you must have a defined skill system, use the one you like -- it will import into the system with ease. Want a feat system? Import it directly, or maybe add a custom one where the feat costs XP to "buy" (that fits in well with the idea of different costs to advance a level, actually). Adding is generally easier than taking away. That's not just because of mechanics and balance, but also because of player perceptions.

MORE ON SKILLS & FEATS

The great thing about the SIEGE engine is that your PC is free to attempt just about anything he can think of. You aren't limited by the list of skills (or feats) you could pick/buy. That means that if the player and the GM agree that a certain action is something your PC could do, you can try it. You don't have to worry that, despite your character concept, your knight didn't have enough points to buy knowledge of heraldry (which can't be used untrained). Of course, as with any system, the GM can always rule that something is beyond your capabilties (e.g. a mountain barbarian who has travelled to the Emperor's court may have no chance at a "knowledge of local politics" check). That same barbarian might have no chance to use his Int to engineer a stone cathedral with flying buttresses, but an average chance to use his Int to engineer a wooden pallisade. The system is flexible that way.

Certain skills being better than others, and continuing improvement, are handled by the use of primes, and by the application of a level bonus. So if your knight has Int as a prime stat, he's going to be better at Int-oriented skills (like heraldry). If the action or "skill" is central to his character, the GM can also allow him to add his level as a bonus.

Feat-like actions can be handled in a similar fashion. If the knight says he wants to swing really hard, sacrificing accuracy for power, the GM can say "OK" and give a bonus to damage while penalizing the attack roll. You don't need to have "power attack" written down on your sheet to do this. If the wizard tries the same thing, the GM could let him do it, or he might decide to have the wizard make an ability check to see if he can perform that manuever. Or he could rule that the wizard can't do it. The SIEGE engine empowers the GM by making his judgment and creativity matter.

The SIEGE engine empowers players by avoiding the sometimes artificial limitations that a skill and feat system can impose. It broadens what you can attempt: your character's class and concept/background becomes the important factor, rather than which skills and feats you could "afford."


Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:31 am
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Mogrl

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Quote:
miller6 wrote:
GMs and players who like rigid and complex rules favor 3rd edition.

GMs and players who don't like rigid and complex rules favor C&C.

Rigid and complex rules are less fun and harder to learn.

You do the math.
Brian Miller



Come on Brian, you can give me better answers with a nice tone to them. This is supposed to sell C&C, not make them think we have ego's. I know your not being that way, but your tone is somewhat confrontational/antagonistic/challenging/whatever and I would have to totally scrap your actual input.

Want to give me something I can add to the final draft?

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:48 am
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Ulthal

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I edited mine, too, to make it more "pro C&C" and less "anti 3E" in a couple of places.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:58 am
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Red Cap

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Old School feel with modern mechanics that melt into the background and allow the game to be played, instead of results being arbitrated.
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:09 am
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Maukling
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Quote:
Combat_Kyle wrote:
4. Old school feel, without THAC0.


Am I the only one who missess the THAC0?

1. The flexibility of the SIEGE engine and its use rocks. It is a basic mechanic that allows for quick resoltion for even the nuttiest tings your plyers might throw at you.

2. ...I just just got in from work and am too tired to think of mine yet...will add more when aklert...

3. 4 out of every 5 dentists recommend it?


Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:38 am
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Battle Stag
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Quote:
DangerDwarf wrote:
Am I the only one who missess the THAC0?



Yes. Yes you are.
.......................................Omote

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:59 pm
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Red Cap

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I didn't (don't) mind THAC0, it was often quicker than consulting a combat matrix for a target number, but I do have to admit the current system is a bit friendlier to new players.

Whenever I used THAC0, I'd save my players headaches and just tell them the monsters AC, so they always knew exactly what to roll. Sure, it took away from the mystery, but the ease of subtracting the AC from their THAC0 no doubt prevented many headaches inthe long run.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:05 pm
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Battle Stag
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Just like Meepo, the current system of AC is the most basic, and makes the most sense. It is the epitome of ease and makes me wonder exactly why complex matricies and THAC0 was ever used.

..........................................Omote

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:28 pm
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Lore Drake
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Edited my previous post. I feel muuuuuuch better today.
Brian Miller
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:50 pm
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Battle Stag
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Quote:
miller6 wrote:
Edited my previous post. I feel muuuuuuch better today.



Aw Bri, why did you have to go and do that? To be honest, I would have loved to say in response to this thread:

"Simple, because Castles & Crusades is gooder."

Oh well.
.........................................Omote

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>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<


Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:58 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
Omote wrote:
Aw Bri, why did you have to go and do that? To be honest, I would have loved to say in response to this thread:

"Simple, because Castles & Crusades is gooder."

Oh well.
.........................................Omote

FPQ



Muchly gooder. Well point.
Brian Miller
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:08 pm
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Red Cap

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I Like Pie. C&C = Pie.

Therefore, C&C = good.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:13 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
meepo wrote:
I Like Pie. C&C = Pie.

Therefore, C&C = good.



Now that's funny as heck. Good one.
Brian Miller
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:16 pm
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Mogrl

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I think I'll use the C&C=pie as the closing clincher reason to play!

Thanks Brian, I was wondering if something was up.

Philotomy, thanks for improving your tone but I wasn't worried about it because you gave so much good stuff I would have easily been able to alter the tone. Brian was too short and to the point for me to use it and still be able to change the tone. He's much better now.
Thanks everyone! I take it that giving actual "in play" examples is something no one wants to do? That is probably good, since each example would probably take a half page or more for each one. I doubt anyone would read such a multi page length post. I figure if they aren't intrigued or outright convinced after the first paragraph or two, we aren't going to win them over anyways.

I know there are more of us, so keep them coming! I'll leave this up until late Monday or Tuesday for those who may only post from work. Then I'll write it up and post the rough draft for us to pick apart.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:10 pm
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Mogrl

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Quote:
Quote:
I freely credit this theory to Serleran



Thanks, Sieg. Sometimes I forget I had something to do with it.
As for why I like C&C:

The system is modular. Subsytems can be imported, altered, or wholly created and added, removed, or whatever else with little impact on the remainder of the game. It advocates adoption and manipulation, begging every CK who plays to have the game they enjoy, but using the same underlying concepts so, even if a tourney were played, everyone would be on the same page.

The ease of conversion from other games, even ones that don't use the same die types (for example, a percentage game like Rolemaster) really allows a huge amount of "stuff." In my opinion, C&C is a bridge, or a gateway drug, giving those who play a way to take everything they like from any source and use it, in most cases, exactly as it was originally. To me, this is C&Cs greatest strength. Sure, you can convert AD&D or d20, but when you start using stuff from Chill, Call of Cthulhu, Witchcraft, and even Vampire: The Masquerade material in your games... you really see the total flexibility and adaptibility that C&C offers.

I helped design the system, so, I am both proud and biased about it.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:14 pm
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Red Cap

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Adaptability. C&C can be used with all editions of D&D. Likewise, it is very basic, so the CK can run it as-is, or import materials from other systems as he sees fit. From AD&D's non-weapon proficiencies to D&D's skills and feats, both can be used with C&C.
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Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:05 pm
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Red Cap

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Quote:
Treebore wrote:
I think I'll use the C&C=pie as the closing clincher reason to play!



So simple, yet elegant. Just like C&C!

Quote:
Treebore wrote:
I take it that giving actual "in play" examples is something no one wants to do? That is probably good, since each example would probably take a half page or more for each one. I doubt anyone would read such a multi page length post. I figure if they aren't intrigued or outright convinced after the first paragraph or two, we aren't going to win them over anyways.



I'll work on mine. It just isn't very exciting. Also, I haven't played since around Nov 2005, so I may be a bit sketchy on the details.


Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:10 pm
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