Free Guide for converting 5th Ed to C&C

[Grandpa]

https://trolllord.com/wp-content/upload ... _to_CC.pdf

[DMSamuel]

I disagree with the DC conversion formula. But overall it's fine I guess.

The conversion advice in that document says this : "The base method to convert DC to CL is simply to subtract 10 from the DC. Thus, a DC 17 task becomes a CL 7 challenge."

A CL 7 challenge is VERY HARD for a 1st level PC to succeed at in C&C! It would require a roll of a 18 for prime and a 24 for non-prime. That is ridiculous and is way too high. It leads the reader to think that a CL 7 task should be average or normal and a CL 7 task is meant to be difficult in C&C.

In fact - a non-prime 1st level PC could not succeed at a CL 7 check... they would have to be level 4 before they even had a chance to succeed at it, and then they would have to roll a 20 on the die... the conversion advice is WAAAAAY wrong.

I mean - C&C is supposed to be harder because the PCs are less like super-heroes slinging magic all the time, but it isn't supposed to be THAT hard.

Here is what I do:
IF the d20 DC is... then the C&C CL is...
DC 1-10 = CL 0
DC 11-15 = CL 2
DC 16-20 = CL 4
DC 21-25 = CL 6
DC 26-30 = CL 8

Challenge Class = Challenge Base (12/18 depending on prime) + Challenge Level (depend on the difficulty of the task)

So a level 5 fighter making a STR check to break down a DC 21 door (CL=6), would need to roll d20+LVL+STR mod and beat a Challenge Class of 12/18+6... so the fighter with STR prime and a +3 STR mod would roll a d20+5+3 and they would have to beat 12+6=18, so they need a 10 on their d20 to bust down the door (a 55% chance to succeed)... this is roughly comparable to d20 numbers from 3e.

That 10 seems like an easy thing to roll, but let's consider a rogue attempting the same task with only a +1 STR and non-prime...

The rogue with STR non-prime and a +1 STR mod would roll a d20+5+1 and they would have to beat 18+6=24, so they need a 18 on their d20 to bust down the door... Still do-able, but much less likely (only a 15% chance to succeed).

Now let's do a wizard attempting the same task with a -2 STR and non-prime...

The wizard with STR non-prime and a -2 STR mod would roll a d20+5-2 and they would have to beat 18+6=24, so they need a 21 on their d20 to bust down the door... an impossible task in C&C for this wizard.

[Grandpa]

The wizard with STR non-prime and a -2 STR mod would roll a d20+5-2 and they would have to beat 18+6=24, so they need a 21 on their d20 to bust down the door... an impossible task in C&C for this wizard.

Sure it is. Not every class, especially with low relevant scores, can do everything a PC with better scores and Primes can do. Sometimes it IS impossible. C&C is not an advanced version of 3.x but of AD&D where the MU would NOT be able to pull it off.

[DMSamuel]

The wizard with STR non-prime and a -2 STR mod would roll a d20+5-2 and they would have to beat 18+6=24, so they need a 21 on their d20 to bust down the door... an impossible task in C&C for this wizard.

Sure it is. Not every class, especially with low relevant scores, can do everything a PC with better scores and Primes can do. Sometimes it IS impossible. C&C is not an advanced version of 3.x but of AD&D where the MU would NOT be able to pull it off.

I agree - I've been playing C&C for a long time... That is not my issue with the conversion document. That second half of my post, and the last example in particular, was precisely to illustrate that things aren't meant to be equal at all and wizards shouldn't be able to do everything, especially if it is a task that is better suited to a STR prime class like a fighter. THIS should be explained in the document, instead of pretending that you can convert a DC into a CL like this and it directly creates tasks of equal difficulty.

My main gripe is that converting a DC 17 check, which is a moderate check in 5e and relatively easy to succeed at, to a CL 7 check in C&C is not a good conversion. A CL 7 check in C&C is a DC 19 for a PC with that stat as prime BUT for a non-prime PC a CL7 check is a DC 25... My issue is not that some things are more difficult in C&C or that the difficulty differs for different PCs - that is one of the things I love about C&C - my issue is that conversion suggested by that document doesn't take any of that into account and explain to the players coming from 5e that these checks are HARD or VERY HARD now, not moderate. That is to say, the document presents it as a relatively straight-across conversion, but it isn't.

Let me say it in a slightly different way - doing the conversion from a moderate DC of 17 and turning it into a CL 7 check in C&C makes it go from a moderate difficulty check to a hard or very hard check. The document presents this as if making a DC 17 check into a CL7 task is moderate in both systems and it is not. The document is misleading and my fear is that a person using this conversion will end up turning their players off of C&C because they use broken conversion instructions.

[Grandpa]

The wizard with STR non-prime and a -2 STR mod would roll a d20+5-2 and they would have to beat 18+6=24, so they need a 21 on their d20 to bust down the door... an impossible task in C&C for this wizard.

Sure it is. Not every class, especially with low relevant scores, can do everything a PC with better scores and Primes can do. Sometimes it IS impossible. C&C is not an advanced version of 3.x but of AD&D where the MU would NOT be able to pull it off.

I agree - I've been playing C&C for a long time... That is not my issue with the conversion document. That second half of my post, and the last example in particular, was precisely to illustrate that things aren't meant to be equal at all and wizards shouldn't be able to do everything, especially if it is a task that is better suited to a STR prime class like a fighter. THIS should be explained in the document, instead of pretending that you can convert a DC into a CL like this and it directly creates tasks of equal difficulty.

My main gripe is that converting a DC 17 check, which is a moderate check in 5e and relatively easy to succeed at, to a CL 7 check in C&C is not a good conversion. A CL 7 check in C&C is a DC 19 for a PC with that stat as prime BUT for a non-prime PC a CL7 check is a DC 25... My issue is not that some things are more difficult in C&C or that the difficulty differs for different PCs - that is one of the things I love about C&C - my issue is that conversion suggested by that document doesn't take any of that into account and explain to the players coming from 5e that these checks are HARD or VERY HARD now, not moderate. That is to say, the document presents it as a relatively straight-across conversion, but it isn't.

Let me say it in a slightly different way - doing the conversion from a moderate DC of 17 and turning it into a CL 7 check in C&C makes it go from a moderate difficulty check to a hard or very hard check. The document presents this as if making a DC 17 check into a CL7 task is moderate in both systems and it is not. The document is misleading and my fear is that a person using this conversion will end up turning their players off of C&C because they use broken conversion instructions.

Now I understand. I agree.