Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Lurker
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Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

Post by Lurker »

Ok been doing some more reading, and noticed something I've missed before
Call Lightning, as written, it only calls down a lightning bolt once every 10 minutes … That is only 1 bolt that does 5+d10 damage every 60 combat rounds.

Yes, that is great damage potential ( unless you get rolls like me on roll 20 or map tools) per bolt. But isn't the 10 min wait between bolts a bit excessive ?

I can't think of the last combat that we were in that lasted 10 whole minutes.

Plus, you don't get your first lightning bolt until 10 minutes have lapsed and only if there is a source of lightning in the area … So this further limits the spell.

Of course a clever caster can use control weather to create a storm in the area as the source for the lightning, and can plan ahead so that the full 10 minute wait is not in the heat of combat. However, isn't this still severely limited or underpowered for a 3rd level spell ?

If so, have any of you house ruled it in any way to improve it, make it more useful, or less limited ?
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

Post by DMSamuel »

So I have two comments about this...

1) I believe the spell is basically a port over from 1e AD&D and it reads very close to it... both take 10 minutes to cast, both produce 1 bolt every 10 min, both are level 3 druid spells...

2) There are a couple lightning based wizard spells that are meant to do damage to creatures in combat, as evidenced by their casting time of 1 turn: lightning bolt (level 3 wizard), chain lightning (level 6 wizard spell) - note that these are both wizard spells. I think that is by design.

I think the wizard spells are meant to cause damage in combat, but the druid's call lightning is meant to damage structures or natural barriers, and so are not tied to a quick combat round in terms of time.

For the two reasons above, I have not bothered to houserule the call lightning spell.

Note that there IS a 9th level druid spell dealing with storms and possibly lightning that has a CT of 2 and has effects that damage creatures in combat...
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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It is 1D10/level in a 10 FOOT RADIUS. (in a 20 foot circle!) up to 450 feet away. Minimum 5D10 damage per bolt with 5 bolts. So minimum 25D10 damage in 10' radius The caster can cast this then cast other spells and do any other actions while this spell is in effect and call lightning every 10 minutes. You DON'T need a lightning storm to cast this. Just stormy weather. A rain will suffice or windy rain cloudy weather.

Damn powerful for a 3rd level spell.

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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DMSamuel wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:49 pm
So I have two comments about this...

....

I think the wizard spells are meant to cause damage in combat, but the druid's call lightning is meant to damage structures or natural barriers, and so are not tied to a quick combat round in terms of time.

...
Note that there IS a 9th level druid spell dealing with storms and possibly lightning that has a CT of 2 and has effects that damage creatures in combat...
That at least makes sense on it being a long slow spell, however outside of a siege how often would you need to us that spell?
Grandpa wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:56 pm
It is 1D10/level in a 10 FOOT RADIUS. (in a 20 foot circle!) up to 450 feet away. Minimum 5D10 damage per bolt with 5 bolts. So minimum 25D10 damage in 10' radius The caster can cast this then cast other spells and do any other actions while this spell is in effect and call lightning every 10 minutes. You DON'T need a lightning storm to cast this. Just stormy weather. A rain will suffice or windy rain cloudy weather.

Damn powerful for a 3rd level spell.



It is a powerful spell, only if it last for the duration. Like I said in the original post, how often does the average encounter last 10 + minutes ?

It is potentially powerful, but only IF it is in a situation that lasts nearly an hour. A siege, a mass combat, or razing an area. In the normal practical situation that average adventures are in you will only get 1 lighting bolt off and then the combat will be over before the next 10 minutes comes up. Plus, it takes 10 minutes to cast, so unless you are planning ahead and ready for the fight, it will not even be completely cast before the combat is over.

Compare it to fire ball - 1 turn to cast, less damage (1d6/lvl) in a 40 ft diameter area - it does more damage (1d10/lvl) in a smaller area, and takes forever (in combat terms) to cast.

Plus, and I just noticed this, Call lightning and pyrotechnics are the only 2 combat spells that the Druid has on the 3rd level spell list ...

I know Druids aren't supposed to be combat tanks dealing out massive amount of damage every round, but their first big power dealing spell (3rd level when wizards get fireball, lightning bolt, hold person, & stinking cloud) & it takes 10 min to cast, and only usable once every 10 min, it seems to hamstring it to severely.
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

Post by Grandpa »

Lurker wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:55 am


I know Druids aren't supposed to be combat tanks dealing out massive amount of damage every round, but their first big power dealing spell (3rd level when wizards get fireball, lightning bolt, hold person, & stinking cloud) & it takes 10 min to cast, and only usable once every 10 min, it seems to hamstring it to severely.
Yes, if your DM is running mostly hack & slash it is best to use Wizards & fighter types almost exclusively. Drop all other classes except maybe a healer that does mostly that. But, that type of game gets boring fast..

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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The druid destroys the Orc village in one night... with no pointing to the townfolks... or vise versa....
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Captain_K wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:11 am
The druid destroys the Orc village in one night... with no pointing to the townfolks... or vise versa....
Nice!

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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I think that is its power is that a hidden druid can over hours rain lightening down... as if nature was against some force, building, or area.
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Yes, agreed. Not as quick as a wizard but with the patience of nature, more deadly

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Assuming a druid and a mage of the same level (let us assume level 10)... in an evening the druid can cast 10 10d10 bolts in 20 diameter vertical cylinders. A 10th level druid could cast this spell 3 times in a row taking 33 minutes of casting time and 100 min per spell for a total of 300 d10 damage (taking 333 min to do the work = 5.55 hours). A Wizard on the other hand gets 10d6 damage, takes 18 seconds to cast her three bolts for a total of 30d6. Yes its horizontal, yet it can affect more creatures, but it can also bounce back. If time is on your side, then this spell is at least 10x more "powerful" if its all about damage it can do. Making the wizard spell seem like premature electrocution... sorry could not resist that pun.

Let your math do the talking...and do not piss off a druid and go to sleep.
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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300 d10 of damage = avg. of 1,650 hp of destruction!

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Sorry it took me this long to jump back into the conversation. Lots going on with work and then with the in-laws coming for Thanksgiving.

Ok, I see your all's point. and it nearly convinces me

Yes in total, it can deal out more massive damage over time. But that is theory.

In practical, how often have any of you played in a game or ran a game that would have worked out like that?

Since I started playing over 30 years ago, I can think of only 2 times that the game scenario or events would have made it useful and let a druid deal out that level of damage over time.

I don't know, I may have been gaming (playing and running) it wrong, but on average once in ever 15 years seems like a significant ham string on the spell.

Again, I understand that a Druid isn't a mage or a cleric and shouldn't be dealing out fire ball or lightning bolt spells (premature ej or not) , However, at the same time, I'd hate to be a player with a druid character that finally gets the 'call lightning spell' and wants to jump into combat and help the party and then goes ... "well guys you have to wait 10 min while I cast the spell, and then I will get a massive damage dealing bolt once every 10 minutes ... you fighters can go ahead and get comfortable and take a nap for a bit"

That or

"OK guys I have had this spell for YEARS and never been able to use it. Finally I get to rain down lightning from hell on the (insert mook monster type here) and wipe out their whole village" ... and the fighter smirks and shrugs his shoulder looking at the mage. - Both of which could be just as destructive with their magical armor and weapons and spells any time and not just in this specific siege type scenario

Now if any of you can honestly say that it is more useful more frequently than what I've experienced, then I will cede the point gladly. However, if, despite the theoretical amount of damage it can deal in total, you can't say you have seen the game set up in a way it met its full potential significantly more often than I've seen, then I still feel it is underpowered as is.
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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the timing and location are everything. first you have to be outside, second you need a tad bit of bad weather, but that could be every few days in real life. in real life, war takes seasons... so you have time on your side. DnD group tend to rush in and do everything in a hurry.. we must fight this 3,000 year old lich now, not another minute must pass with this stain of evil....wait, 3,000 years the world still worked... why do we have to attack now>

So if you are a slave to the combat round or the dungeon crawl you will never let the druid have his 5.55 hours again, you have to allow the druid time and that is either on the whole group allowing the wait and then when the druid hits the last lightening bolt and says, let's go rescue the princess now that the keep gate is "open" and all the withering fire from the two opposing towers has stopped (the towers are gone) we should be able to get into the dungeons and find her while they are trying to repair the mess I just caused... heck let's volunteer to help clean up the mess.. let the illusionist disgues us all.

That said, I tend not to play a druid in dungeon crawls and I have to allow my groups with druids to largely be outside and give them chances to run things at their pace... the world will always have something to do tomorrow.
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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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Lurker wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:04 am

In practical, how often have any of you played in a game or ran a game that would have worked out like that?

Many times in siege, counter siege situations. Which can happen when attacking large "lairs", etc. The opponents aren't going to come out and charge to get slaughtered all at once unless brainless. Intelligent creatures will attack or defend from cover with missile weapons. Lazy or inexperienced DMs run monster opponents like mindless zombies compelled to go to the slaughter house. (Unless of course they ARE zombies). There will be lulls in the combat (where minutes pass very fast). Combat vs. intelligent, war like adversaries can take hours (game time not real time) if the DM knows his stuff.

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Re: Call Lightning - underpowered spell ?

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I've run a group where the monsters (a zealous order of unique undead (zombie like)) kept beating the PCs down, or several times to the PCs it looked like they needed to retreat. Once one of their top fighters was crushed and killed with a single blow from the Abbot, it looked bad for the party, trapped on top of the "Tower of Virtue", but the Abbot simply ordered them "Leave us now" and let the PCs go, some were even carried down the side of the tower.... as you can guess, the PCs always come back and finally they're going to finish the game, but weeks of game time and several long days took place in the game, new PCs were recruited too, time for levels to be gained, library research to take place, alley''s to give gifts to aid, etc. The characters did augury and divination, etc. all slow spells... heck they are on the clock now... awaiting and protecting one of their PCs while he cast Hallow... we are a mix of combat rounds and hours waiting for the sun to set and the spell to conclude and free the keep of its evil Unhallowed ground spell... then on to the desecrated alter and the exciting conclusion.. all this took weeks of game time and 7 years of our lives to conclude... so what's a few hours of game time for the druid.... and yes there is a Druid in the game, thankfully he has not decided to rain lightening down on the keep yet... likely because he does not think he would ever finish the spell and the Tower of Virtue is not something so simple to destroy... under its unholy protections and the ranks of undead who call it their holy place...
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