Tome of the Unclean

[Tadhg]

Who's got it and what do you think??

I'm sure to pick up a copy, but I'd like to hear from anyone who has one.

Many thanks,

Rhu.

[mgtremaine]

It's a nice looking book with a TON of creatures.

But slightly under powered like we said. Partial example.

DEMON, BALOR
NO. ENCOUNTERED: 1-4 SIZE: Large
HD: 9 (d10)
MOVE: 45 ft.
AC: 22
ATTACKS: 2 (Sword 2d6, Flaming whip 6d4)
SPECIAL: Abilities common to all demons, Darkness, Flame Strike, Spell-Like Abilities, SR 15

[serleran]

That may not be "weak." Certainly some of it is indeed powerful, especially that 6d4 whip.

Depends a great deal on "abilities common to all demons" and "spell-like abilities."

For example, immunity to all forms of energy attacks or half to most plus the power to gate, teleport, etc, etc is sort of important. And the fact that 1-4 of them show up at once.

Need to know more about the actual capabilities before I would say it's "weak."

I will say the AC is relatively low for a demon but it keeps it in the "can be hit." Whether it needs magic items to do so is not mentioned. And that makes a major difference. Something can have an AC of 0 but if only a +10 weapon can hurt it, the AC is sort of pointless.

[maximus]

I think many of the creatures are under powered. The Balor should have higher hit dice, and a higher intelligence. Its +1 sword is weak, although the Flame Strike ability with its whip gives it a good punch. Belial has only 3 spell like abilities; weak. Many of the other Demon Lords / Arch Devils are similarly powered. All in all, I was disappointed. I would use creatures from 1E or even 2E rather than those from the Tome.

[Tadhg]

Thanks for all the responses, I'm definitely going to pick up a copy. I'll be watching for any sales!

[Mediapig71]

Is the book in color, or B&W?

[Telhawk]

Really hoping the FLGS can get hold of this thing reasonably (i.e., before the end of the calendar year) soon, and can use it to fill out the list of C&C monsters (and that term is inclusive of pretty much all non-human/demi-human types, including all good and/or neutral aligned species). With how retro-compatible AD&D and C&C are, I suspect there'll be little we can't translate over from the first/second edition Monster Manuals, if needed. I as well am hoping the work is in colour, as this would really add an element of depth to the lower planes monstrosities (and yes, here the term is meant as stated); as wonderful as the original MM pictures are, it'd be great to see something that provides a slightly different perspective.

Edit: I clicked on to the TLG Castle Keeper's link and saw that the book has been listed as available for order (Yay!). However, the accompanying three book-interior shots on the left are all in black and white. Could be argued that these are first/second-draft pictures, or a couple of select items that just happen to be in black and white, but it looks as though, at the very least, that there will be some uncoloured images.

Final point - I really, really hope that Baalzebul is given the basic C&C-equivalent stats and condition he was given in the original Monster Manual; I thought that bit about turning him into some kind of giant slug(!?!) was one of the most anti-climactic steps that could have been taken, to say the least.

[anvil242]

It's black & white throughout

[Rigon]

I don't believe it reached the color level when they did the Kickstarter for it.

R-

[Telhawk]

Not in colour...? Well, that's what pencil-crayons are for. Hmm...give Orcus a kind of nice treebark tone...fits in nice with those ivory horns...

Well, colour, shmuller; I'm happy just to get something in print that provides a single documentary work for the C&C demons/devils/daemons. As stated before, sure, we can just do the scavenger-hunt bit and pick from various AD&D works and do a quick conversion - but it's always nice to have something collected and with the TLG/C&C stamp on it.

Also: Called the FLGS and they've got it on order for June 15. Six whole weeks, a painful time, yes...but I'll just picture Asmodeus and Demogorgon playing bridge the entire time till the book comes in, and cheating like hell (literally) to grand-slam their opponent into living up to their bet and becoming a manes/lemure for the next century. Game on, boys...

[Persimmon]

Finally got mine last week. The t-shirt and color map of the Underworld were great bonuses that I didn't recall pledging for. Haven't had much time to go through it yet, but glad to see a good mix of new and classic AD&D baddies. We're mostly playing Advanced Labyrinth Lord & Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea now, but easy enough to convert these for those games. So despite the crazy long wait, I'm pretty pleased with this at first glance.

[Telhawk]

Just mentioning: the FLGS had been talking about getting this in for retail sale on June 15, but there's been no word as yet. Any indications and/or issues with delays in printing, and so on? Really looking forward to getting this soon.

[Telhawk]

An addendum: Well, er, ah, um...never mind. The FLGS called this afternoon and the work is waiting for pick-up tomorrow. Looking forward to it, and batting around how the AD&D translations have come across - can't imagine there'd be too much difficulty; all that'd really need numeric alteration is the Armor Class - and if there are any new demons/devils/daemons and the like populating the work. Imagine there'd have to be more than a few; the combined number from the Monster Manual, Fiend Folio and various Dragon magazine articles are still not up to a full hardcover publication size. Perhaps there are some second edition - maybe even third/three-point-five/fourth/fifth, who knows - floating around there as well. In any case, looking forward to how Troll Lord Games has handled this too-long unaddressed part of the game.

[Omote]

Curious to see Tellhawk's thoughts on the TOTU.

~O

[Telhawk]

Omote, thank you very much for the invite concerning reactions to this work. First of all, the listing of the various Lower Planes monsters was nicely done, along with enough fill-in/extras text for a CK to use in constructing situations where the players meet up with either the Prime Material avatars or actually travel down to the Abyss/Hell/Hades for a face-to-face scrap. Giving a fairly thorough breakdown of the Nine Hells, the various planes' rulers and so on, can provide an excellent starting point; the Abyss, by its nature - of course - is completely up for grabs (literally). For the most part, I saw that the first-edition versions were maintained, although various demon Lords (ex-Princes) are somewhat jacked up over the AD&D first-edition listings; e.g., Demogorgon now has 250 hit points rather than 200. Not a huge change (if you're gonna be scrappin' Demogorgon - Demo-frickin'-gorgon - you better be prepared to label out that extra 50 points damage before you're declaring victory). Other entries, such as Asmodeus, stuck with 199, so there is a bit of cause to wonder as to why the alteration was made. Again, just more or less interested in the Devs' thought processes on this, rather than doing the big "No NO NO!" bit.

Another point that did strike me, a bit after I'd first gone through it: why was Lolth not included? The demon Queen of Spiders is pretty much an iconic AD&D villain/monster, and I thought that throwing her into this would have made perfect sense in terms of moving the AD&D monster population over to C&C. Sure, doing the Fiend Folio/TotU transfer is certainly not in the end-of-all-things category - largely a switch-over of AC -10 to 30 and we're more or less ready to go - but it would've been nice to see a new artistic interpretation. Other monsters, such as the bone devil, for example, were not included either. Perhaps this was due to copyright issues and the like, and doing the switch-over, again, is definitely not a back-breaker, but just wondering where they went.

Speaking of artistic, I felt that the black-and-white work carried across quite nicely. I honestly felt that WotC's publications on the same subject had illustrations that came across, in many cases, as a) too loud, and b) too busy. Keeping things to the black-and-white scheme allows for some imaginative interpretation to go on; just would've been nice to have a shot of, say, Demogorgon (just to pick a name) scrapping it out with some never-say-die adventurers on an Abyssal landscape.

Also, putting in a full list of the undead comes across as helpful - if you're gonna be working in those Lower Planes locations, most likely there're going to be some like-aligned undead serving as tormentors.

That's first reactions, at least; there may be some further thoughts later on.

Otherwise, was quite pleased by the work, and hoping that TLG can have some other material published over the balance of the year. To the TLG crew: If you're going to be stopping in Toronto for a game convention over the next while, please let us know.

[spudeus]

I'm pretty sure Lolth (along with the Drow) were retained as D&D IP; I figured I can always import her from my old Fiend Folio! I don't have my copy in front of me, but remember the various 'at will' powers increased the challenge level above and beyond mere HP and damage range. Seemed like that always should've been a huge advantage, except back in the day we kind of treated spell-casters as being semi-at-will.

The illustrations are good, but it is kind of a shame that we don't have color to go with the revised M&T this year. I wouldn't mind seeing other 'themed' monster books - say humanoids, or magical constructs, or weird hybrids pushing toward Dark Sun/Gamma World. . .

[Omote]

Thank you for the great breakdown Telhawk. I am also really digging the TOTU, and appreciate the additions added in by the author. I actually don't mind the new names, and the slightly-off descriptions of classic D&D demons and devils. The Unclean Foliage is really a cool idea. I wish there was a lot more to the "wilderness" and environmental aspects to the lower planes in this book. The foliage seems like a great start to that idea.

However, I can say that after talking to Troll Lord Steve at Origins a few weeks ago, it seems as if they have definitely moved into the real of a Planar Handbook as the next big C&C project. He gave no timetable, but from his conversation it seems that perhaps a lot of the ideas from TOTU and what I would like to see are already in the planning stages for the next big C&C book. But I got the distinct impression that such a book is a long way off.

~O

[maximus]

Thread Necro alert!

My campaign is getting to the point where some low level denizens of the Lower Planes are involved. Has anyone updated 1E or other material for use with C&C? I know there's some older info on this site in regards to ArchDevils and Demon Lords, some of which I like. How are you handling it, if at all, in your campaigns?

[paladinn]

Have you seen the Tome of the Unclean? It's pretty comprehensive as far as I can tell. Demons and daemons and devils, oh my!

[mgtremaine]

If you don't have the Tome of the Unclean and you are just looking for conversion or ideas look in the C&C Monster subform here.. There is ton of stuff...

Here is link my little effort

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13406

-Mike

[Grandpa]

How are you handling it, if at all, in your campaigns?

Tome of the Unclean covers it all pretty well.

[maximus]

Have you seen the Tome of the Unclean? It's pretty comprehensive as far as I can tell. Demons and daemons and devils, oh my!

Yup. Did not like it at all.

[maximus]

If you don't have the Tome of the Unclean and you are just looking for conversion or ideas look in the C&C Monster subform here.. There is ton of stuff...

Here is link my little effort

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13406

-Mike

Thanks! Just looking to generate some conversation. I do have the ToU and am not a fan of most of it.

[paladinn]

If you don't have the Tome of the Unclean and you are just looking for conversion or ideas look in the C&C Monster subform here.. There is ton of stuff...

Here is link my little effort

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13406

-Mike

Thanks! Just looking to generate some conversation. I do have the ToU and am not a fan of most of it.

Have the fiend-treatments of any of the other renditions been more to your liking?

[maximus]

If you don't have the Tome of the Unclean and you are just looking for conversion or ideas look in the C&C Monster subform here.. There is ton of stuff...

Here is link my little effort

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13406

-Mike

Thanks! Just looking to generate some conversation. I do have the ToU and am not a fan of most of it.

Have the fiend-treatments of any of the other renditions been more to your liking?

I liked the 1E versions, but thought some were underpowered (Type VI Demon, some of the Demon Princes/Arch Devils). Based on feedback from Steve, some of that was going to improve in the ToU. IMO, it did not. I think maybe the Crusader Companion has some better versions, but I'd have to go back and check it out. It's on my prep list of things to do.

[Grandpa]

Have you seen the Tome of the Unclean? It's pretty comprehensive as far as I can tell. Demons and daemons and devils, oh my!

Yup. Did not like it at all.

What didn't you like?

[mgtremaine]

I also gathered all the link is could find in this post. Over the years we've all made a ton of stuff...

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewto ... 28#p256828

-Mike

[maximus]

I also gathered all the link is could find in this post. Over the years we've all made a ton of stuff...

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewto ... 28#p256828

-Mike

Awesome, appreciate the effort Mike! I had forgotten about this.

[paladinn]

I also gathered all the link is could find in this post. Over the years we've all made a ton of stuff...

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewto ... 28#p256828

-Mike

Awesome, appreciate the effort Mike! I had forgotten about this.

Wow, this is a lot! Does this differ substantially from what's in ToU?

[mgtremaine]

Yes ToU covers much of the 1E demons and rather then wade into the debate again I'll leave that up to the reader. It also has lots of interesting new demons and nobility. But most of posts in the Link above pre-date that. KasierKris was on a roll do these all back in 2010... Read this one if you dare!

https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewto ... 17#p165017

-Mike