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Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull" 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Crossbows get no STR bonus... although you could make one harder to cock... effectively giving you a heavier bow and thus it just scales up for weight and cost but STR lets you load quick?

Classic Bows of all type can have higher pull so STR bonus can be used for Damage.. OK, great... but...
1) The table in the CKG seems off based on normal STR bonus.. should shift down a bit by one notch, no bonus that does not match your STR bonus.
2) What is the cost of such a special made bow? I would assume no more than a Masterwork (Expert) so at most 10x cost? Custom make could be as little as 2x if the guy knows what hes doing.

Now for the fun, a sling is a propel weapon.. its not pull but if the PC had high STR, simply a bigger rock and a sling made to use it effectively... "Big rock sling" if you will.

Thoughts? Directions for existing ruling?

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Tue May 29, 2018 10:47 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Heavy crossbows...or those with more powerful tension in the bow required a goats foot or built in lever or crank to pull back. That is how they were able to reload faster. STR would have very little to do with it. (research paper written in high school on the topic for history class)

Sling, and other arm thrown weapons, should be getting STR bonus for damage, though DEX is still primary for To Hit. Can increase damage by shaped and/or weighted bullets though it would only be by 1 or 2 points. Bigger rocks past about 2-in dia actually give diminishing returns in both range, accuracy, and surprisingly impact since they require more energy to offset the mass. A larger sling doesn't really affect that much. (per SCA lectures circa 1986 - Shire of Aquaterre)

Pull Weight on Bows is fair as written. Think of it as mechanically augmenting the leverage being applied by the STR to pull it back.

For cost I use the initial cost of the bow plus: (+0=+0; +1=+100gp; +2= +300gp; +3= +600 gp; +4= +1000gp) (I forget where I pulled this from, but I've been using it that way for a long time now.)

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Tue May 29, 2018 11:51 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
I assign crossbows a Strength equivalent.

With a lower Strength than it, the reload time is slower. At a higher rating, reloading is faster.

The Strength adjustment adds to damage.

So, a heavy crossbow might have a Strength of 18 -- this gives it a +3 damage. If the user does not have a Strength of 18, the reload time is 1/3 rounds (or whatever, just add one round to the existing); I might add 2 or more if significantly under perhaps just the +3 - the modifier of user so negative values add more.

Over the Strength, is the user's number - 3 reducing one round. So, if you somehow had a +6 Strength modifier, you could reload a heavy crossbow every round.

Some magical items can make this better as I do have enchanted cranequin.

But, I dunno. It could change next game. I like to play around to see if I can find a good fit.


Wed May 30, 2018 12:07 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Go0gleplex wrote:
For cost I use the initial cost of the bow plus: (+0=+0; +1=+100gp; +2= +300gp; +3= +600 gp; +4= +1000gp) (I forget where I pulled this from, but I've been using it that way for a long time now.)


I've seen similar rules to that. I'm trying to think if the rule I seen was the same or a straight +100 per point of strength, or +300 per point of strength, I want to say 100. Too many editions!

serleran wrote:
Over the Strength, is the user's number - 3 reducing one round. So, if you somehow had a +6 Strength modifier, you could reload a heavy crossbow every round. Some magical items can make this better as I do have enchanted cranequin.

I like the idea of this. Would it matter if the crossbow had a cranequin or goats foot for reload speed? I could see a strong character being able to really use the goat's foot being faster, while a crank can be difficult to turn.

Last up, AD&D 2nd had a rule bows were numbered based on stength. If you picked up a bow with a STR 17 and your strength was a 15 you could not use the bow. If you had a strength greater than the bow, you could only use the damage rating of the bow (i.e., a strength 17 bow, would only allow the strength 18 character to get a +2 damage bonus.


Wed May 30, 2018 9:01 am
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Lore Drake

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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
T1Hound wrote:
Last up, AD&D 2nd had a rule bows were numbered based on stength. If you picked up a bow with a STR 17 and your strength was a 15 you could not use the bow. If you had a strength greater than the bow, you could only use the damage rating of the bow (i.e., a strength 17 bow, would only allow the strength 18 character to get a +2 damage bonus.


As i recall, you could still use the bow, but only get the benefit up to your strength bonus. That is, you couldn't pull the bow back as far as the bow would allow.

So you'd get the benefit of the bow's bonus or your strength bonus, whichever was lower. At least, that's how i remember playing it.


-Fizz


Thu May 31, 2018 1:21 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
great input guys, thanks.

But if a giant makes a sling he slings bigger rocks and does more damage. If a 2 year old makes a sling its little and he uses little stones... if an adult with good strength uses a sling I would think he could whirl a bigger stone.. (yes I know giant's just throw stones)...

the bow get's its special build for cost... the cross bow by being "bigger" and needing mechanical junks gets its str bonus.. the sling slings stones or bullets for more damage... just thinking tall PC with good str makes his sling bigger than average and selects slightly bigger stones or has slightly heavier bullets made.

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Thu May 31, 2018 11:59 pm
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Ungern

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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Don't you add the strength bonus on thrown weapons?


Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:15 pm
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
anvil242 wrote:
Don't you add the strength bonus on thrown weapons?


Yes. Spears, daggers, javelins,etc.


Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:04 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
And maybe increase range for higher strength. Maybe add +10 yards for each point of strength over 12.


Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:07 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
T1Hound wrote:
And maybe increase range for higher strength. Maybe add +10 yards for each point of strength over 12.


In my game, Strength has a direct relationship with range for all weapons that are powered by it. For example, light hurled weapons (small rocks, daggers, axes, etc) might be 20 feet per point of Strength (18 * 20 = 360 feet at maximum range, divided down to 60 short, 180 medium, and 240 long) and then it gets halved or quartered for heavier weapons.

It doesn't come up very often as most players in my game want to use crossbows. That might be because the dwarfs make some amazing ones.


Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:37 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
I think range is more skill than STR... heavy stuff like "shot puts" OK, but javelins, daggers, stones.. I'm guessing that's skill more than STR.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:11 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Captain_K wrote:
I think range is more skill than STR... heavy stuff like "shot puts" OK, but javelins, daggers, stones.. I'm guessing that's skill more than STR.


Naw. Mostly strength, though technique can make up for a bit of lacking STR. (discuss thrower in Track myself) With javelins STR is augmented by the running start. Knife and hatchet throwing are pure strength for range but technique for effectiveness. (will the stupid thing stick in the wood or handle strike - SCA and Ren Faire exp.)

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:31 am
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Lore Drake

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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Quote:
Naw. Mostly strength, though technique can make up for a bit of lacking STR. (discuss thrower in Track myself) With javelins STR is augmented by the running start. Knife and hatchet throwing are pure strength for range but technique for effectiveness. (will the stupid thing stick in the wood or handle strike - SCA and Ren Faire exp.)


So are you suggeting use strength for range / damage and dexterity for accuracy (to hit bonus)? Seems reasonable.

Fizz


Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:24 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Just to have fun arguing.. purely for fun... baseball pro pitchers are skill and style, not "muscle heads"... they throw a rock sized object 90 feet or so (long range to medium range for most hand thrown melee weapons) with tight accuracy and high speed. So muscle aka raw STR I think matters not for range throwing a baseball or the speed they throw the ball.. once leaving the thrower, speed of the mass does the damage.. no longer does STR of the arm matter.. So maximizing speed of the item is key to bonus damage... that said... what the heck is that in CnC... so it changes nothing in CnC.. just having fun arguing :}

That said, DEX to hit makes sense, STR for damage bonus makes sense.. right now range is limited by the weapon.. I don't like adding more STR bonuses.. too much already for STR... I like skills or levels or ability or class increases range.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:01 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Captain_K wrote:
Just to have fun arguing.. purely for fun... baseball pro pitchers are skill and style, not "muscle heads"... they throw a rock sized object 90 feet or so (long range to medium range for most hand thrown melee weapons) with tight accuracy and high speed. So muscle aka raw STR I think matters not for range throwing a baseball or the speed they throw the ball.. once leaving the thrower, speed of the mass does the damage.. no longer does STR of the arm matter.. So maximizing speed of the item is key to bonus damage... that said... what the heck is that in CnC... so it changes nothing in CnC.. just having fun arguing :}

That said, DEX to hit makes sense, STR for damage bonus makes sense.. right now range is limited by the weapon.. I don't like adding more STR bonuses.. too much already for STR... I like skills or levels or ability or class increases range.


:shock: I'm surprised that you would say that STR doesn't matter once leaving the thrower since, in physics terms, that would be like throwing acceleration out of the equation which has a direct impact on velocity of the mass which in turn affects the kinetic energy/impact of the projectile.

When I played in Little League, my primary position was center fielder with a secondary of relief pitcher. I only had one pitch, but it was a 90+ mph fast ball that was vicious enough to require my catchers to add extra padding in their glove and shake their hand out every few pitches. :twisted: Was only able to keep that up for 3-4 innings, or 27-36 pitches, before my arm tired and both speed and accuracy declined. So STR most certainly has a major impact there.
It also affects how far and fast I was able to throw the ball from deep center field towards home plate with or without a cut-off man. So STR does most definitely affect range as well.

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Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:36 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Once STR is used to impart the initial velocity and the ball has left the hand.. str no longer matters, heck the player no longer maters, once its left the hand.. so assuming the ball is capable of easily lifting by all.. its hand speed that releases the ball. I would assume the same for a throwing dagger.. its how fast you can move that dagger when it leaves you hand. F=m*a hand speed is the a.... and force is required to get that a so the F is the STR... so now I'm going to have to research this.. which is it the force making the acceleration only or can fast twitch muscles simply throw it faster without needing great STR... I'm guessing its out there... TBC.

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:47 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
Captain_K wrote:
Once STR is used to impart the initial velocity and the ball has left the hand.. str no longer matters, heck the player no longer maters, once its left the hand.. so assuming the ball is capable of easily lifting by all.. its hand speed that releases the ball. I would assume the same for a throwing dagger.. its how fast you can move that dagger when it leaves you hand. F=m*a hand speed is the a.... and force is required to get that a so the F is the STR... so now I'm going to have to research this.. which is it the force making the acceleration only or can fast twitch muscles simply throw it faster without needing great STR... I'm guessing its out there... TBC.


I guess one way to look at it would be STR being the same as a Cannon or linear force. Technique would be more like a trebuchet or discus thrower or centrifugal force. Flicking I think falls more under centrifugal but could also be like a catapult or crossbow equating to stored force/energy. More food for thought.

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:08 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
The few times that I have played 5e, they replaced bows with Dex to hit and damage.

Since it’s a game, I guess the rationale can be made for anything.

Similar to backstabbing undead, critical hits against undead, etc.


Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:44 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Mighty Propelled Weapons CKG "Pull"
I like splitting the bonus to hit for some things with DEX and some with STR.. nice in general and tossed or shot (ranged) get DEX and hand held get STR. Then STR again rules the day for damage... I like the idea that DEX could be excellent placement for extra damage not just brute force.. but it is what it is currently.

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:14 am
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