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Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
I like the simplicity and the minimalism of them (allowing your 'think out side the box' use of the skills). kicking mental what ifs around and looking at things in different angles I think you could easily fit most of the cannon Jedi / Sith powers and effects into them, or I mean use them to fit the powers ... you know what I mean

However, the exp cost to buy them .... It ham strings a jedi starting character .(and yes this is another issue I had with Jedi as a kit in SW D6)

If I haven't missed a modification you put in your HR, or if I'm not miss remembering the BTB rule on starting characters - either of which are entirely possible right now because I'm mentally exhausted after a 3 hour drive, 5 hours of training, and then a 3 hour drive back - You only get 10 exp at starting character build to buy specialties (skills) and PSI (Force) powers. So, as you said earlier, a Jedi must start with the Jedi power of 'Sense Force' which is X6. So, your starting character only has 4 ep to spend and no power costs less than 6.

I'd argue, the powers a Jedi needs to be viable ( much less worth of the name Jedi) would add up to 50 points --Physical Enhancements , Sensory Enhancements, Sense Force, Lightsaber Combat, Cloud the Mind, & Telekinesis .... and this is getting them at base level, not to the level where you are lifting an X wing with your mind etc

Then when you consider that BTB you only get 1 - 3 exp per adventure it will take that starting character 5 adventures to get light saber, then 4 adventures to get danger sense ... all of this and not improving a skill or anything (which greatly limits their survivability when you consider all other players - and therefore the bad guys they are facing - are spending exp on skills at 1 point per skill point.



Oh yeah, I'd add that force lightening is an auto dark side point for a Jedi.

I know, if I point out a issue, I should try and give a solution ... but I'm already starting to nod off as I type, so any solution I'd come up with would be gibberish ...

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Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:10 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
I did put some modifications into the house rule doc for starting build points, but you also need to remember, when you create your PC you are making Luke Skywalker from the beginning of Star Wars IV, not from the end of Star Wars VI. It takes experience and training to gain those types of powers.

Now that I have Force powers sketched out, I'll try to do how I see some of the iconic characters (Han, Luke, Leia), one for IV and one for VI.

R-

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Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
So working up the stats for Luke Skywalker and it is re-enforcing to me that Force Powers are hella expensive. But I can't figure a way to reduce the Xp costs.

R-

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Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:51 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
So working up the stats for Luke Skywalker and it is re-enforcing to me that Force Powers are hella expensive. But I can't figure a way to reduce the Xp costs.

R-


So don't. Increase the expected XP awards.

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Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:58 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
So working up the stats for Luke Skywalker and it is re-enforcing to me that Force Powers are hella expensive. But I can't figure a way to reduce the Xp costs.

R-



Good, I'm glad it wasn't just me that was coming up with that conclusion. I was afraid I was just being whiney and bull headed ...


Treebore wrote:

So don't. Increase the expected XP awards.


I'm not sure that works either. Because that does allow the Jedi to get powers at a bit faster rate, but it does also put the progression of other non force users into over drive.

This is a tough one (and like I said it is also something I struggled with in SW D6). How do you make a Jedi playable, to the level they are in the movies, and not either make the other characters uber powerful or leave them behind.

Also, the point of being Luke in the start of IV, he is a skilled pilot, good with a blaster, etc, has at least basic skill in light saber, has sense force, and sense enhancement (or some other power that allows him to see the practice droid/floating ball with the visor down and anticipate it's 2 shots). Finally, enhance ability to make the shot that destroys the death star (or burning of a light point or 3)

Then by V he has telekinesis, and force navigation (allowing him to go to dagobah or how ever you spell it. For argument lets say that is an effect of telepathy). So min of 16 exp . Yes he is bound to have adventured between the 2 got exp and spent them, but at what rate ... Plus I don't see Han's blaster skill and other skills going up to a point to reflect 16 exp. Oh yeah, Luke had ride animals as a new skill and is more than just proficient at it too, so there is more points spent.

I know I fall in the camp of not overly worrying about balance of classes etc, but there must be a point of sanity vs completely un balanced un fare to other characters. I just don't know what it is ...

I did go back and read your HR , knowledge savvy & 3 d 4 will help (all characters not just Jedi) make a playable character at the space opera level. But, it still leaves Jedi way under powered, or facing a huge amount of exp to spend to get minimal Jedi powers ...

What are the options ?

Reduce the cost of the powers - to what level ?. However, even I, as the proponent for cool powerful Jedi, I don't think they should be the same exp cost as a skill

Increase exp given per game- still easily over powers other classes

increase exp to Jedi only - it works, but isn't fare

give extra starting exp to Jedi - not fare and doesn't help in the long run

give extra stating exp (to any character) based off good history/background - (A Jedi must be assumed to have a good background, if not they will be weak) I like this option as it encourages more than a passing thought be put into any character. and if someone wanting to play a Jedi can't think of a good background story maybe they need to rethink it. However, it still doesn't fix the long term problem.

I can't think of any other option, but I'm sure there are more

But, from that list I'd argue for:

Extra starting exp for starting characters - as decided by the GM after reading the background - and making any needed changes - as you set the precedence as using d4s, add a d4 for every 'cool' point or great story hook with a max of 3 (maybe 4 for an amazing background).

Reduce the exp cost for the powers to 1/3 their listed cost - I think it is a good balance. It isn't 1 point for every power level, but not over costly to the Jedi. It allows them to increase there powers at a rate that is only a little slower than non force users but not at the snail's pace of the BTB cost.

However, the Jedi does not have access to all the powers they buy at start up right out of the gate. one or 2 yeah, but not all. (This is especially true for Star Wars a New Hope era) . The GM can unlock the power for the character over the first few adventures as needed when cool points will be added to the story by introducing the power (Her getting 'cloud the mind' in the torture room and using it on the Storm trooper guarding her, getting TK to grab the light saber out of it's path to the bad guy and pull it to her, and getting uber skills with the light saber at the end of the movie - in the latest SW movie is a great example). That will enhance excitement as the character hopes the powers kick in, keep the Jedi from being a super hero in session 1, and allow them to 'discover their hidden powers' and transform from a Bush pilot that is good in a fight (to quote Han) into a Force user that has a chance of holding their own (unless the weight of the Empire & Vader falls on their head).

It isn't perfect, but I think it is workable ...

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Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:41 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
I did have a thought that if the Force user had a teacher, they would only have to pay half the xp for Force Powers, but if they tried to discover them on their own, then they pay full price.

As my example, let's look at Luke through IV, V, VI.
To me, Luke only has Sense Force in IV (paid full price at character creation).
At the beginning of V, he has picked up Telekinesis (again at full price), but he saved some xp. When he goes of to train with Yoda, he learns Physical Enhancements, Clairvoyance, Danger Sense, Telepathy, and Sensory Enhancements (all paid at a reduced cost because he has someone to guide him).
At the beginning of VI, he has learned Lightsaber Combat and Cloud the Mind (full price again, because Yoda became one with the force).

So he would have paid full price for 4 powers totaling 35 xp and half price for 5 powers totaling 21 xp. So he would hvae spent 56 xp to gain all of his powers. Now I figure he would have gained around 75 xp for all 3 movies plus all the other things he did off screen. That leaves him with 19 xp to spend on Specialties. So he picks up some more points in Flight, adds Melee to his set, increases Channeling and Mental Endurance, maybe adds some to his Force Points, picks up a few points in Allay, Feats of Strength, Feats of Agility, and Parley. That makes him a pretty solid Jedi by the end of VI.

Now I haven't seen VII yet, so I don;t know how things play out in it, but I'm assuming that over the last 30 years he has picked up Healing and Energy Manipulation.

Anyway, that's how I can see it working, but I've started to mash around the idea of bolting on a class structure with SS. I need to think on that some more before I put out any ideas.

R-

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Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:29 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
I did have a thought that if the Force user had a teacher, they would only have to pay half the xp for Force Powers, but if they tried to discover them on their own, then they pay full price.
R-


I can see that working.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:49 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
First, I'm not arguing to be argumentative (yes, I've spent most of the day between 2 people that are thin skinned and get their feelings hurt at any criticism, and one person that takes even a minor item and turn it into a nuclear event. So, I've had to be painfully careful on phrasing everything)

That said, ...

I can agree up to a point on the order Luke got the powers. I could argue a power here or there, but that would be splitting hairs ...

What I will argue is, you gave the order he got the powers, and the exp cost, for one point in each power. However, as someone pointed out (either in this thread or my Jedi power) , a Jedi must get more than one point in the power to use it to greater effect. It is one thing for Luke to lift a few rocks and stack them then lift R2. It is another for Yoda to lift the X-wing. It is one thing for Luke to cross saber blades with Vader (and get his hand chopped off and nearly die) it is another for him to deflect blaster bolts from a speeder bike and cross blades with Vader and win. That list can go on.

So for an accurate account of the Exp used to get Luke's powers you need to figure multiple levels in the needed skills. Then add those up and they will be significantly higher than 56.

Also, don't forget all the skills a Jedi will need - channeling, mental endurance, etc, and then the non-jedi skills they need - different handling skills, navigation, etc. Those too will increase the exp needed by a Jedi character

A second point, say it is only the total of your 56 points for Luke to go from IV to VI. Show me similar improvements in the other characters. 56 points would buy a full skill package and 20 points for bonuses in individual skills. That is a huge amount of improvements to the non Jedi characters. And it isn't what I see in the 3 movies. Yes they get better (Han in IV in the jail break out scene completely failing his bluff check, then in VI bluffing successfully to get the Imperials to open the doors to the building housing the shield generator protecting the Death Star), but not to a 56 point improvement level.

With that, maybe we should plot the change from IV to VI in non Jedi characters. Get the points needed for them to make the change, Then figure a way to get the Jedi to fit their change into similar exp cost. That said, I still argue a Jedi is likely to become a super character, so they do need to have a increased exp cost (but not that high of a cost).

Treebore wrote:

Rigon wrote:
I did have a thought that if the Force user had a teacher, they would only have to pay half the xp for Force Powers, but if they tried to discover them on their own, then they pay full price.
R-


I can see that working.


I can see that, but (from playing in SW D6 that has a similar rule) it gets klunky. The GM has to provide a guest teacher when needed, have him leave when not needed, and give a realistic reason for doing so. That or end up saying "yeah it would be great the have a teacher to save you exp, but yet again you don't have one" (so with your cost for light saber, go 5 adventures and not spend any exp and then get 1 point in the one power, while everyone else increases blaster pilot, etc etc etc with those 15 points). That, or eventually waive the need for the teacher give them the powers at half price.

However, even at half price of your cost (if you have a teacher all the time) those are some significant prices. 8 points for +1 in light saber is + 8 to blaster taking a non prime shooter to and equivalent of prime +2. With that, I'd argue the cost still needs to be cut significantly. Then allow the option of teacher gets you half that price (I'd say min price for a Jedi power should never be below 2 points to keep the Jedi from becoming super characters).


Rigon wrote:

...
Now I haven't seen VII yet, so I don't know how things play out in it, but I'm assuming that over the last 30 years he has picked up Healing and Energy Manipulation.

Anyway, that's how I can see it working, but I've started to mash around the idea of bolting on a class structure with SS. I need to think on that some more before I put out any ideas.

R-



Crud I forgot you hadn't seen the new movie, If I had remembered it, I'd not have used that example ... sorry !

I hate to admit it, but maybe the only way to make a playable Jedi. I hate to say it because I prefer a skilled based game for my sci fi ... I hope we don't have to go that way, but we have to make the force powers cost usable before we can go completely non class/skilled based.


Maybe, we are going about it wrong. Maybe we need to make 2 character, - with the same attributes etc - one Jedi one non force user. Then give each average exp for say 6 to 8 adventures. Progress the characters accordingly. Then when you have both characters to a point that you would willingly play either (close to equal powers not one painfully under powered, or one super powered and overshadowing the other) we know we have the math right.

That way this isn't a discussion on theory, it is objective ... I'll try that after the girls go to bed and before I rack out

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Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:32 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Ok here we go

Bob the Smuggler
Phy +1
Ref +2
kno 0
Sav +1
Conf +2
Emp 0

Psi -2

Bundles
Handling Persuasion & Combat

Skills
Pilot +2
Shoot +2
Defense +3
Bluff +2
Corruption +2

Force Powers
None

After 8 games (16 exp)
Pilot +4
Shoot +4
Defense +5
Bluff +3
Corruption +1
Nav (Non Prime) +6
Unarmed Combat +2

A bit weak in an area or 2 (so needs a co pilot and another crew member or 2 to round out the party) but very playable.

Bill the Jedi
Phy 0
Ref +1
kno 0
Sav -1
Conf +2
Emp +1

Psi +2

Bundles
Spirit Awareness Combat

Skills
Channeling +2
Mental End +2
Defense +2

Force Powers
Force Sense
TK

After 8 games (16 exp)
No new skills

Force Powers
Cloud the mind
Saving the rest of the exp to get danger sense but is 2 short

All the Jedi powers are only at level 1 ... That hurts when looking at Bob's skills

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Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:06 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Once you buy the Force Power you don't have to keep buying it, you just increase your other Specialties (as most Force Powers add to Specialty use). But I agree with you in that Xp for Force Powers are a bit high, but I think that makes for better roleplay, thinking out side of the box for Force usage, and preplanning Xp allocation.

I have a work up of how I picture Luke at the beginning of SW IV. If I have time tomorrow, I'll try to do a work up of Han for SW IV. Then I can extrapolate for SW V and VI. But I can see Han picking up another Skill Bundle somewhere along the way, so ending up with 4 Bundles by the end of VI. I see him starting with Awareness, Combat, and Handling and then as he moves up the ranks of the Rebellion command structure, picking up Persuasion (commanding troops and such).

I don't know, sometimes I think SS will work just fine and other times I think it needs a major reworking to fit SW.

R-

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Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:01 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
My take on SW IV characters made with my changes to the system.

R-

Luke Skywalker (Star Wars IV) Starting XP: 18

Phys +1
Ref +2
Know 0
Sav 0
Conf +1
Emp +3

Cyber: 12
Tech: 7
Force: 10
Darkside: 0
Nova: 2

Human
-Size 10
-Move 1 (ground), Personal
-Adaptation
Profession: Jedi

Bundles
Athletics
Awareness (p)
Combat
Environment
Handling (p)
Lore
Mechanics
Persuasion
Spiritual (p)

Specialties
Channeling +2
Defense +2
Flight +4
Mental Endurance +2
Shooting +2

Force Powers
Sense Force (P0 D0 X6, Awareness)


Han Solo (Star Wars IV) Starting XP: 17

Phys +1
Ref +3
Know 0
Sav +1
Conf +2
Emp 0

Cyber: 10
Tech: 9
Force: 1
Darkside: 0
Nova: 2

Human
-Size 10
-Move 1 (ground), Personal
-Adaptation
Profession: Smuggler

Bundles
Athletics
Awareness (p)
Combat (p)
Environment
Handling (p)
Lore
Mechanics
Persuasion
Spiritual

Specialties
Anticipate +2
Bluff +2
Defense +2
Flight +4
Navigation +2
Repair +2
Shooting +3

Force Powers
None


Leia Organa (Star War IV) Starting XP: 20

Phys 0
Ref +2
Know +2
Sav 0
Conf +2
Emp +1

Cyber: 11
Tech: 9
Force: 4
Darkside: 0
Nova: 2

Human
-Size 10
-Move 1 (ground), Personal
-Adaptation
Profession: Noble

Bundles
Athletics
Awareness
Combat
Environment
Handling
Lore (p)
Mechanics
Persuasion (p)
Spiritual (p)

Specialties
Bluff +2
Charm +3
Cultural Understanding +2
Defense +2
Leadership +3
Mental Endurance +2
Parley +3
Reasoning +3

Force Powers
None


Chewbacca (Star War IV) Starting XP: 25

Phys +2
Ref +2
Know +2
Sav +2
Conf +1
Emp -1

Cyber: 10
Tech: 9
Force: 0
Darkside: 0
Nova: 2

Wookie
-Size 11
-Move 1 (ground), Personal
-Climbing Claws
-Rage
Profession: Smuggler

Bundles
Athletics
Awareness
Combat (p)
Environment
Handling (p)
Lore
Mechanics (p)
Persuasion
Spiritual

Specialties
Bluff +2
Climbing +2
Defense +2
Disable +3
Feat of Strength +2
Flight +4
Navigation +2
Repair +3
Scavenging +2
Shooting +3

Force Powers
None

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Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:06 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
Once you buy the Force Power you don't have to keep buying it, you just increase your other Specialties (as most Force Powers add to Specialty use). But I agree with you in that Xp for Force Powers are a bit high, but I think that makes for better roleplay, thinking out side of the box for Force usage, and preplanning Xp allocation.

...

I don't know, sometimes I think SS will work just fine and other times I think it needs a major reworking to fit SW.

R-



That changes things (to a point) it at least eliminates my worry about needing 70 + exp to build a Jedi. And, I apologize for miss understanding or miss-assuming.

However, I disagree that a high cost for force powers makes for better role playing. Yes a Jedi does need to plan better and be played smarter. Plus, a Jedi requires great role playing any way. Like I've said before, anyone wanting to play a Jedi but not wanting to role play a Jedi ... should just move along ... However charging too high a price for the Jedi to become playable means that it isn't worth paying it . That means one of the great parts of SW will be left out.

It would be one thing if Jedi were brooding shadowy characters that were weak in everything but had psi powers. However, that does not fit. Jedi - even the ones that are classic sage and counselors - could hold their own in dangerous situations. Because of that their powers can't break the bank.

That said, I'll modify my argument from above saying cost should be 1/3 what is listed. Also, I do like your idea of a teacher reducing the cost of learning the power. So, ... what is a good price ... something like 3/4 to 2/3 the listed cost ... I'd argue for the 2/3 price, but I guess on some powers that will be to low, so that is flexible. Then having a teacher reduces it by a half (with no power costing less than 2 points.)

Now I'll say, SS has great potential . But yes it needs work. I'd think your house rules goes a long way to fixing it. Right now we are trying to fine tune the rules so that say a lot about the work you've done and the potential of the rules ...

Great work on the starting characters.

I'd argue to fit the story that Han & Chewie aren't 'starting characters' so could have higher scores etc etc etc. But good start for a Han & chewie at their start. Oh yeah, I noticed you gave chewie 3 bundles as prime. Was it a type o ?

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Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:42 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Yes, that was a typo. I also figured to change up the write up for wookies. There are some things I want to change.

R-

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Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:40 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Ok, we have let this simmer to long with no additional input, so I’ve decided to blow in the embers and kick it up again. So, here you all go for the background write up of another popular Star Wars Alien race

Twi’lek

More derogatorily know as ‘Tail-heads’. A completely hairless humanoid species that is comparable to humans for height and weight – though that tend to be slightly taller and slimmer than some humans. However, where humans tend to have one of only a few shades of skin, Twi’lek skin can range from white to blue to green to pink (both near to human skin tone and true to the pink color) to orange to lavender and red and many shades of these colors. Additionally, some Twi’leks are tattooed with contrasting & or complementary colors to their normal skin to further enhance their exotic alien skin tones. Additionally, to enhance their natural beauty &/or appear less exotically jarring to humans, some Twl’leks tattoo ‘eye brows’ above their eyes. However, the myriad tones and shades of the skin color of the Twi’lek , is not their most striking and well know physical feature. It is their head – tentacles / brain – tails that dominate their hairless head.

Twi’lek are similar to humans in many ways, but tend to be more graceful / agile than the average human. This grace and the exotic coloration and hairlessness of the Twi’lek made female Twi’lek favored entertainers, dancers, and slaves throughout the galaxy. This is so common and imbedded in the galaxy that most when seeing a female Twi’lek assume they are either a slave or concubine , and owning one (in a slave owning society) is a mark of wealth. Despite the negative connotations of being looked on as chattel and pleasure property , Twi’lek females tend to encourage and embrace at least to a limited point the view of sensuality. Most using their natural grace, the exotic tribal dance skills, and exotic beauty to develop their seduction skills and fill the role of temptress, even those that are not slaves, concubines, or entertainers , as it causes others to underestimate .

The standard mindset of Twe’lek is to ‘ride the storm that you cannot defeat’ – a reminder of their harsh home world’s wind and sand storms. As such, most Twe’leks tend to try and find a middle path in most things and always look for the various angles from which to follow through in any and every situation. Additionally, a byproduct of this mind set, and the wide spread slavery, is most if not all Twi’lek males develop skills useful in criminal activities (either in supporting the slave trade or in opposing it ). Even Twe’lek females learn these skills but they are overshadowed by their legendary seduction skills. However, this mindset does not mean that Twe’leks are passive or non-combative. There is a rich history of proud warriors, though they tended less to favor direct frontal combat. They more preferred fast raids and guerilla warfare tactics.

Their head-tentacles are prehensile, though no dexterous enough to be used to pick up or hold items, and the movement and positioning if the tails is vital in their native language. The tail movement, mixed with oral and normal body language, the use of the head tale adds an additional level of detail to their communication . As such, though non-Twi’lek species can learn the verbal elements of the language, they can never master the language, nor learn to understand the language at greater than a basic rudimentary level. The head tails are so useful in communication that even without any other form of communication, Twi’lek can use their head tails to communicate with other twi’leks. Thus leading those who enslave the Twi’leks use ‘tail muzles’ to stop their slaves from being able to communicate in a manner that non-Twi’leks can understand.

The home world of the Twi’lek was a harsh planet with dry conditions but varied regions of temperatures. Additionally, though the planet has usable and useful mineral and other resources, it has little of great value. There is basic industries producing useful items but no great industrial base mass-producing items for exportation, no extremely valuable minerals, and the planet is too arid for wide spread agriculture. As such, the galactic slave trade is the greatest source of wealth on the Twe’leks’ homeward . This reliance on the slave trade is surprisingly not overly fround upon by the Twi’leks themselves. With their mind set of riding the storm out, they look at it as a way to bring wealth into their world while exporting some of the population off their harsh home world. However, the individual Twi’lek being sold into slavery may not entirely agree with that view. Additionally, their mindset, and habit of looking at different angles leads some of the Twi’leks involved with the slave trade work behind the scenes to free those same slaves – this freeing the enslaved and making sure the market for more slaves to export is open, leading to more slaves being freed , and the cycle goes on ….

Of course this is taken from wokiepedia, the SW D6 forum, and various books.

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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
I was looking at this stuff again today. I think with what I have, I could run a decent Star Wars game. Now to put it on the queue and wait for the KoK game to wrap up.

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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
I was looking at this stuff again today. I think with what I have, I could run a decent Star Wars game. Now to put it on the queue and wait for the KoK game to wrap up.

R-


Cool! I'll play!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Treebore wrote:
Rigon wrote:
I was looking at this stuff again today. I think with what I have, I could run a decent Star Wars game. Now to put it on the queue and wait for the KoK game to wrap up.

R-


Cool! I'll play!

Of course you're in. It would be the Monday night slot with the Monday night regulars.

R-

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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Lurker wrote:
First, I'm not arguing to be argumentative (yes, I've spent most of the day between 2 people that are thin skinned and get their feelings hurt at any criticism, and one person that takes even a minor item and turn it into a nuclear event. So, I've had to be painfully careful on phrasing everything)

That said, ...

I can agree up to a point on the order Luke got the powers. I could argue a power here or there, but that would be splitting hairs ...

What I will argue is, you gave the order he got the powers, and the exp cost, for one point in each power. However, as someone pointed out (either in this thread or my Jedi power) , a Jedi must get more than one point in the power to use it to greater effect. It is one thing for Luke to lift a few rocks and stack them then lift R2. It is another for Yoda to lift the X-wing. It is one thing for Luke to cross saber blades with Vader (and get his hand chopped off and nearly die) it is another for him to deflect blaster bolts from a speeder bike and cross blades with Vader and win. That list can go on.

So for an accurate account of the Exp used to get Luke's powers you need to figure multiple levels in the needed skills. Then add those up and they will be significantly higher than 56.

Also, don't forget all the skills a Jedi will need - channeling, mental endurance, etc, and then the non-jedi skills they need - different handling skills, navigation, etc. Those too will increase the exp needed by a Jedi character

A second point, say it is only the total of your 56 points for Luke to go from IV to VI. Show me similar improvements in the other characters. 56 points would buy a full skill package and 20 points for bonuses in individual skills. That is a huge amount of improvements to the non Jedi characters. And it isn't what I see in the 3 movies. Yes they get better (Han in IV in the jail break out scene completely failing his bluff check, then in VI bluffing successfully to get the Imperials to open the doors to the building housing the shield generator protecting the Death Star), but not to a 56 point improvement level.

With that, maybe we should plot the change from IV to VI in non Jedi characters. Get the points needed for them to make the change, Then figure a way to get the Jedi to fit their change into similar exp cost. That said, I still argue a Jedi is likely to become a super character, so they do need to have a increased exp cost (but not that high of a cost).

Treebore wrote:

Rigon wrote:
I did have a thought that if the Force user had a teacher, they would only have to pay half the xp for Force Powers, but if they tried to discover them on their own, then they pay full price.
R-


I can see that working.


I can see that, but (from playing in SW D6 that has a similar rule) it gets klunky. The GM has to provide a guest teacher when needed, have him leave when not needed, and give a realistic reason for doing so. That or end up saying "yeah it would be great the have a teacher to save you exp, but yet again you don't have one" (so with your cost for light saber, go 5 adventures and not spend any exp and then get 1 point in the one power, while everyone else increases blaster pilot, etc etc etc with those 15 points). That, or eventually waive the need for the teacher give them the powers at half price.

However, even at half price of your cost (if you have a teacher all the time) those are some significant prices. 8 points for +1 in light saber is + 8 to blaster taking a non prime shooter to and equivalent of prime +2. With that, I'd argue the cost still needs to be cut significantly. Then allow the option of teacher gets you half that price (I'd say min price for a Jedi power should never be below 2 points to keep the Jedi from becoming super characters).


Rigon wrote:

...
Now I haven't seen VII yet, so I don't know how things play out in it, but I'm assuming that over the last 30 years he has picked up Healing and Energy Manipulation.

Anyway, that's how I can see it working, but I've started to mash around the idea of bolting on a class structure with SS. I need to think on that some more before I put out any ideas.

R-



Crud I forgot you hadn't seen the new movie, If I had remembered it, I'd not have used that example ... sorry !

I hate to admit it, but maybe the only way to make a playable Jedi. I hate to say it because I prefer a skilled based game for my sci fi ... I hope we don't have to go that way, but we have to make the force powers cost usable before we can go completely non class/skilled based.


Maybe, we are going about it wrong. Maybe we need to make 2 character, - with the same attributes etc - one Jedi one non force user. Then give each average exp for say 6 to 8 adventures. Progress the characters accordingly. Then when you have both characters to a point that you would willingly play either (close to equal powers not one painfully under powered, or one super powered and overshadowing the other) we know we have the math right.

That way this isn't a discussion on theory, it is objective ... I'll try that after the girls go to bed and before I rack out

So, I watched The Force Awakens a couple of times this past week while I was on vacation in the mountains (benefit of not having internet or tv). The first time I watched it was for the movie itself. I wasn't disappointed. The second run through was with my SS/SW conversion in mind. I pretty sure my conversion still works for Force Powers and every thing else. I'll watch it again this weekend (the Mrs. is going camping with a friend all weekend) and pay closer attention to things as I have my conversion handy to compare.

And on a side note, we watched Deadpool twice in 2 days and I'll be adding it to my DVD collection. It will be he first Marvel character movie that I buy.

R-

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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
So, I watched The Force Awakens a couple of times this past week while I was on vacation in the mountains (benefit of not having internet or tv). The first time I watched it was for the movie itself. I wasn't disappointed. The second run through was with my SS/SW conversion in mind. I pretty sure my conversion still works for Force Powers and every thing else. I'll watch it again this weekend (the Mrs. is going camping with a friend all weekend) and pay closer attention to things as I have my conversion handy to compare.

And on a side note, we watched Deadpool twice in 2 days and I'll be adding it to my DVD collection. It will be he first Marvel character movie that I buy.

R-


Cool, yeah, they didn't really add anything new, as far as I could tell, with regard to Force powers and how they are used and what effects they cause.

Deadpool is indeed AWESOME SAUCE!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:30 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
So, I'm thinking I can do a pretty solid mash up of Victorious' class and skill set up with SS that would make a fairly solid system for a SW game.

R-

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Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:46 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Rigon wrote:
So, I'm thinking I can do a pretty solid mash up of Victorious' class and skill set up with SS that would make a fairly solid system for a SW game.

R-


I can see that. I can also see it being done with just the Victorious rules. Either way, should be a lot of fun!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:36 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars
Treebore wrote:
Rigon wrote:
So, I'm thinking I can do a pretty solid mash up of Victorious' class and skill set up with SS that would make a fairly solid system for a SW game.

R-


I can see that. I can also see it being done with just the Victorious rules. Either way, should be a lot of fun!


Plus 1 to that !!!!

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