Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Discuss the SIEGE engine, and SIEGE Engine games other than C&C, such as StarSIEGE, in this forum.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Lurker wrote:
Rigon wrote:
...

I'd have to see how the BPs would look for each version. The baseline is 50 BP for a race/species, so you'd have to make those choices fit into that limit. The +1 to Teck score would be in the Special Abilities section of the species listing, not as an Attribute.

But of your 3 choices, I like the 3rd one best (based off of your description).

R-

BPs make my head hurt ... Plus, I've never been a huge fan of making sure every class or race is perfectly numerically balanced ...

So, I'll put out ideas and you can do the book work and number crunching ;)

I'll say all 3 have merit and I could easily play any of them, but of the 3 I do think I like the 3rd best too.

My next one will probably be the Wookiee, but it will be a while, I have a basket ball game to go to, a funeral/celebration of life, and 2, maybe 3, hunts already planned for the weekend ...
I'll ty to crunch some stuff up over the weekend, but I'm running a fund raiser on Saturday and then have to go to the in-laws on Sunday. We don't have school on Monday, but I need to prep some stuff for the KoK game, so it will probably have to wait until some time next week.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Lurker »

Hope the fund raiser went well.

I've got an idea on wookiees, but I don't think I'll be able to use "Duros v3" as the basis for them.

I'll post the wookiee when it is finished. It will depend on the ducks and the pond hopping today if I'll have it done by the game tonight or if it will be later this week.

Now for a question for all, what alien races do we think are needed to be converted?
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Treebore »

Lurker wrote:
Now for a question for all, what alien races do we think are needed to be converted?

Short answer? All of them. Giving priority to the ones most likely to actually be played.

A question I have is, do you convert them trying to keep them "balanced" with humans, or do you acknowledge the very real likelihood that certain species are clearly superior to humans?
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Treebore wrote:
Lurker wrote:
Now for a question for all, what alien races do we think are needed to be converted?

Short answer? All of them. Giving priority to the ones most likely to actually be played.

A question I have is, do you convert them trying to keep them "balanced" with humans, or do you acknowledge the very real likelihood that certain species are clearly superior to humans?


:shock: All of them, do you know how many that is ..... It is star wars, every movie has to have a bar scene, each bar scene must have more, stranger, aliens than the last ... :lol:

For 'most likely actually to be played' ... that is the idea behind the question . .... I know the ones that would temp me to play them, but I admit to being abby-normal so my list may not sink up with everyone else's. Specifically, in the area of species I would NEVER play ... Jar-Jar, Ewoks, top that list !

Me .... worry about balanced ... how long have you know me. Balanced is Rigon & his SS math :mrgreen:

I will try to make them fit their narrative, playable and not overly unbalanced, and appropriate negatives (some would be role playing not mechanical) that fit their story line / back ground. But focus on making them perfectly balanced .... not so much !
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

That's why my house rules has that thing in it about telling the SE what you want to play and he will provide the game mechanics. I don't want to do a shit ton of work for nothing.

However, I will a couple of alien species as examples. I should have a little more free time now that the fund raiser is over and the next one isn't until the end of Feb (but my buddy is in charge of that one). I'll try to get into this stuff a little bit tomorrow but I never know what my day will bring. We'll see.

And I will try to keep them balanced within the rules set as I possible can. Lurker and I have a very different take on the Force, Jedi, and other such stuff, but I think the game can be played mostly BTB with little to no issues (my adjustments, not with standing).

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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What, me have a divergent view .... that never happens :lol:

I was trying to help share the load, and take a bit off your plate. However, as you point out, our different views will probably end up with different results, sooooooo my conversions would just muddy the waters.

So, I'll back off on conversions unless you bump something my way.

I will keep the conversations going though ..... got to keep things interesting !

Part of me wishes I could pick this up and do my own conversion and house rules, but there is no way I'd have time ...
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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That said

here you go on the narrative I cobbled together for the wookiees - again based off of SW D6 REUP and wookieepedia:

The Wookiees were a species of tall, hairy humanoids that were native to the planet Kashyyyk. They are over 6 ft tall and exceptionally strong. Their hair varies in color from light tan, to brown, to black, and even gray (as a normal color as opposed to graying due to age) is possible. Being from a temperate forest / jungle species, they have clawed hands and feet that they use to their advantage when climbing, but never as a weapon – to do so is considered dishonorable and a sign of madness. Though being from a temperate planet better known for its swamps and forests, their coat of hair allows them to be comfortable on icy worlds.

Wookiees are quite strong, and were often rumored to” rip people's arms out of their sockets when provoked”. As such, they are considered one of the strongest and fiercest intelligent alien species in the galaxy. Also, the ferocity is grounded in truth (though ripping arms out of sockets at a mere whim is over blown) as they are as a species well trained in hand to hand and melee weapon combat. Furthermore, they are known to become enraged in combat if they or a close friend is harmed and in danger of serious injury or death.

However, the fierce reputation at times over shadows their deep culture and intelligence. Wookiee society is surprisingly sophisticated and cultured, especially for a race seen as primitive forest / swamp / jungle dwellers. Though, they are at heart a warrior society, they greatly value friendship, honor and loyalty. A wookiee may without thought or hesitation break Galactic law, be rash, even short tempered- some are even rage driven and cruel, but no sane wookiee will ever willingly break their honor code ignoring a loyalty or fail to meet a ‘life debt’.

Furthermore, though their home world technology level is slightly lower than galactic norms, they easily pick up and understand more advanced technology than many would expect them to easily learn to use. Some of their home world technology, though appearing to be primitive to those unfamiliar with the technology, rivals Galactic technology. The Wookiee bowcaster is an example of this.

Wookiees, with the perception of being one strong and fierce warriors are favored targets of Trandoshans hunting parties. As such Wookiees have an ingrained racial hatred of the lizard hunters. With this, wookiees are at a negative on any reactions with a trandoshans and more likely to become enraged if they are, or an honor bound alley, injured and at risk of death from an attack from a trandoshan.

**** If the game is in the Empire era, Wookiees are considered a slave race , as the Empire enslaved their whole world. As such, in any emerial controlled world, any wookiee will be considered a slave and the property of the slave owner. Any one acting on their own will be hunted by the Empire, or bounty hunters – Trandoshans being quick to take these bounties, which further deepens the hatred between the races. A friend of the wookiee will have to act as the ‘slave owner’ or the wookiee will be instantly marked as a slave and hunted. If captured the wookiee will be sent to one of the various work / entrainment camps the Empire has built. However, in the outer rim worlds, where there is significantly less control by the empire, though there is still rampant bounty hunting, there is lacks enforcement of the enslavement rules of the Empire. As such, a wookiee in the outer rim has a little more freedom, but is still in danger of a bounty hunter – well with the size and ferocity of the wookiee, a team of bounty hunters – attempting to capture them and transporting them back into regions under more firm Imperial control
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Lurker wrote:What, me have a divergent view .... that never happens :lol:

I was trying to help share the load, and take a bit off your plate. However, as you point out, our different views will probably end up with different results, sooooooo my conversions would just muddy the waters.

So, I'll back off on conversions unless you bump something my way.

I will keep the conversations going though ..... got to keep things interesting !

Part of me wishes I could pick this up and do my own conversion and house rules, but there is no way I'd have time ...
Lurker, you should feel free to post any ideas, conversions, etc, that you want. It's always good to have different views and ideas and I may steal from them. Plus, if you have a different way of thinking about things than I do, then we can bounce ideas of of each other. So post away.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Treebore »

Rigon wrote:
Lurker wrote:What, me have a divergent view .... that never happens :lol:

I was trying to help share the load, and take a bit off your plate. However, as you point out, our different views will probably end up with different results, sooooooo my conversions would just muddy the waters.

So, I'll back off on conversions unless you bump something my way.

I will keep the conversations going though ..... got to keep things interesting !

Part of me wishes I could pick this up and do my own conversion and house rules, but there is no way I'd have time ...
Lurker, you should feel free to post any ideas, conversions, etc, that you want. It's always good to have different views and ideas and I may steal from them. Plus, if you have a different way of thinking about things than I do, then we can bounce ideas of of each other. So post away.

R-
Yeah, I can only see such brainstorming between two motivated and knowledgeable people who can communicate effectively with each other as only being beneficial.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Lurker »

motivated, .... knowledgeable, .... effective communicator, ..... is there someone else in the discussion I'm missed ???? :lol:

That said, ok, I'll keep working conversions, just for food for thought. I have no expectation of them being used as I hang them - though I will push for my idea for a 'Jedi sentinel' as that interests me the most out of the SAGA jedi paths ;)

For the above wookiee, I still can't get a good version 3 like I did for the Duros. I'll hang what I come up with ... Friday ... or next week. I'll have to see how tomorrow's 'home coming' basketball game for my girl's school goes ...
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

The whole paths thing is one area where you and I are going to differ a lot. It may be me getting back to my old school roots hardcore in that I feel that any kind of class/path can be played within the rules without adding a bunch of extra stuff. Especially with a skills based game like SS where you can have similar skills to be a part of a "class," but other skills that allow you to do different things, plus the roleplaying. The roleplaying is the one thing that sets all things apart.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Well, we've only had school 2 days this week so far, but Monday was a 2 hour delay because of the snow and the other aide that works in my room was not there and today was hectic as hell, so I didn't get a chance to work anything out, yet. I'm hoping tomorrow is a bit more quiet, but we have a full moon coming on and that's usually when my students are at their worst, so only the gods know how the next few days will play out. I'll try to get a wookie up for perusal soon. I was thinking of doing 3 sample aliens anyways (I'm looking at Wookies, Twi'liks, and maybe Mon Calamari), but I'm not sure. I still need to flesh out the Force Powers, too.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

OK, here is a very rough and preliminary Wookie:

Wookie (50 BP)
Size: 11 (11 BP)
Move: 1, personal (4 BP)
Attribute Modifiers: +2 Physique, -1 Empathy (18 BP)
Special Abilities: (17 BP)
Climbing Claws (P0 D0 X5; +2 Climbing; SFX: Retractable)
Rage (P0 D0 X12; SFX: 1 Wound, Armor Crushing)

Climbing Claws: Wookies have retractable claws that help them be more effective climbers. They never use them in combat and a Wookie that does is considered to be quite insane.
Rage: Wookies can enter a rage when they are desperate. They become so violent in this rage that they deal 1 extra wound box with their physical attack and crush armor.

I left out the thing about honor/loyalty as I feel that could best be served as a roleplaying aspect.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Nice

However, for discussion (and because I'm in the mood to argue and debate - just watched a good basketball game and me & my buddy at work finally got word on a case we worked right after I started and the vet got over $305,000 in back pay. Talk about a reason to be in the habit of arguing !!!! )

I'd add wookiees get unarmed combat (maybe even feats of strength and / or melee depending on how generous you are) even if they don't take combat as a skill bundle.

It fits their narrative and I'd argue is balanced by the negatives associated with the mutual hatred between Wookiees &Trandoshans and the slavery in the Empire
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Lurker wrote:Nice

However, for discussion (and because I'm in the mood to argue and debate - just watched a good basketball game and me & my buddy at work finally got word on a case we worked right after I started and the vet got over $305,000 in back pay. Talk about a reason to be in the habit of arguing !!!! )
Awesome! Go you!
I'd add wookiees get unarmed combat (maybe even feats of strength and / or melee depending on how generous you are) even if they don't take combat as a skill bundle.
I was trying to stay inside of the 50 BP limit, so adding in an unarmed combat SFX, would seriously push that over that limit. I suppose I could off set it by increasing the negetive to Emapthy to a -2, which would free up 18 BPs and I could probably get that in there, but again, I'm trying to keep it within the mechanics of the system as much as possible.
It fits their narrative and I'd argue is balanced by the negatives associated with the mutual hatred between Wookiees &Trandoshans and the slavery in the Empire
Those things would be in the realm of roleplaying. No need for a mechanical change to make include it.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Rigon wrote:
...
It fits their narrative and I'd argue is balanced by the negatives associated with the mutual hatred between Wookiees &Trandoshans and the slavery in the Empire
Those things would be in the realm of roleplaying. No need for a mechanical change to make include it.

R-
I can see it as a role playing element, to a point. But when you land in 2/3 to 3/4 of the known galexxy and are assumed to be a slave or will be hunted, it has a mechanical effect too (unless your game never goes into the 2/3 to 3/4 of the galaxy).

And yes, it would be full role playing for the trandoshans, but I got to stack my deck some how ... ;)

Now for something entirely different ....

I've been thinking about skill bundles and specialties ... Help me think through some things ...

A skill bundle gives you prime on any of the 'specialties' that it covers. So, the human getting 3 bundles at character creation is a good benefit. A human will be prime in 1/3 more skills than an alien

However, to 'buy' a bundle it takes 36 exp . I'm not sure how many exp will be given so I'm not sure how long that will take.

To get a specialty to equal a prime is +6 which will cost 6 exp. some bundles have less than 6 specialties, so it is better to buy the + 6 per each skill. However, some have more than 6, so it is better to get the bundle and get an equivalent +6 for them all.

However, as you are saving up the 36 exp, you aren't putting the bonuses in the skills as you go, soooooo you may not live to the time you get 36 exp.

But, some bundles that do have more than 6 skills you may only want 4 or 5 of the skills so it is better to spend the exp to get the +s in them ...

Ok, not sure what I was going to ask at first ... I guess I'm just trying to picture character development ...

How would you develop a character (lets say a random alien so only 2 bundles at start) . You want him to be a Hon Solo type so smuggler, so take handling and persuasion. But then, you find out real quick you also need to be good in a fight so need most of the combat skills, if not all. But also, those awareness skills would help too.

Do you pick all the needed skills and put a few bonuses in them as you go, save up the 36 and dump them into one of the bundle, or a little of both (buying skills to keep you alive, but saving as much as you can for a big bump by buying a bundle when you get the 36) ????
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Well, considering you are only supposed to earn 1-3 xp per session/adventure, I'd just buy specialties. Plus, you get to add your specialty bonus to your roll. So it stacks with the Prime of bundles. Which is a huge benefit if you have Combat and add a few points to Shooting as opposed to just having Shooting as a specialty. If that makes sense.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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So, 12 to 18 sessions to earn enough exp to by a bundle. That is long odds to survive if you aren't bumping us skills in the mean time.

However, that is a huge bonus getting a + 6 to all skills in a bundle. ...

We'll have to see once we play how it works out.

But there is one thing for sure. I'll play a human right out the gate ! 3 bundles at prime to start with isn't worth any of the benefits to being any of the alien races ...

Not that I want to be a power gamer, but it does give the best chance out of the gait for survival. That said, I know RAW is 50 points to build a race, but I think it may be under powered compared to that 3rd bundle a human gets. But again, we will have to see how it comes out in the wash when we play.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Well, considering that humans pay 36 BP for that extra bundle, they also cap out at 50 BP. So it basically comes down to what you want to play, but similar to C&C, the 3rd Prime is a huge benefit for humans.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

I started to work on some Force Powers today. I have 5 mostly finished and decided that I will just write up all of them, since there are some things in the FM write ups that I don't like. Hoping to have these finished by Friday or so.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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I just stumbled on something that made me scratch my head ... Pilot gets to chose from awareness handling (I agree there) and lore (????)

I see lore easily for advisor, engineer, trader, psion and maybe even explorer. However, I don't see it for a pilot. I think combat or mechanics would be a better fit.

Hay, just noticed something ...Technician & Engineer have the same bundles. They are shuffled up a bit, but the same 3 bundles. I have no problem with it ... they are the same thing any way
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

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Ok, something else ‘mechanical’ I’ve been thinking about. Classification of skill proficiency. At what level is someone considered knowledgeable / skilled and an expert in any given skill ? This is coming up because I'm thinking about some narrative explanations and need to be able to smartly delineate skill levels

To me it comes down to likely hood of success on an average challenge level of the skill.
I’m thinking:

Knowledgeable – some knowledge of the given skill, but a minimal likelihood of success (on an average CL) so being non-prime in the skill with at least 1 point spent on the skill

Skilled – fair likelihood of success (on the average CL) so either prime in a skill or non-prime +6

Expert – great likelihood of success so prime +6 or non-prime +12

wait that is only 15% chance of success at the knowledgeable level … that is to low. It should be at least 1/4 to 1/3 chance for success . Would it be better to have it at least a +3 to +4 for a non-prime skill. Then bump the requirement for skilled & expert to be up +2 to what I said?

What do you all think
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Haven't really given that much thought yet. Still trying to get game mechanics set up.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Treebore »

I don't know, I think you have it just right. We called "knowledgeable" in the Navy, "Knowing enough to be dangerous."

Technicians and Engineers should not be the same thing. Technicians can do maintenance and repairs, probably including a total rebuild of a given system. Engineers design and build the stuff, and lead/supervise the serious repairs.

Saying Technician and Engineer are the same thing is like saying a car mechanic can design a car/vehicle from the ground up. Not even an Engineer can do that anymore, it requires a team of engineers to design and construct a new vehicle. In at least three different fields. Mechanical, Electrical, and I think the third is Chemical Engineer.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Treebore wrote:I don't know, I think you have it just right. We called "knowledgeable" in the Navy, "Knowing enough to be dangerous."

Technicians and Engineers should not be the same thing. Technicians can do maintenance and repairs, probably including a total rebuild of a given system. Engineers design and build the stuff, and lead/supervise the serious repairs.

Saying Technician and Engineer are the same thing is like saying a car mechanic can design a car/vehicle from the ground up. Not even an Engineer can do that anymore, it requires a team of engineers to design and construct a new vehicle. In at least three different fields. Mechanical, Electrical, and I think the third is Chemical Engineer.
I'll look into it.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

As for the Technician/Engineer, while they both have the same bundles, they use them in different ways. Bundles are broad generic categories. Where you start to differentiate is with Specialties. So, personally, I don't have a problem with them having the same bundle set.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Lurker »

Treebore wrote:
...

Technicians and Engineers should not be the same thing. Technicians can do maintenance and repairs, probably including a total rebuild of a given system. Engineers design and build the stuff, and lead/supervise the serious repairs.

Saying Technician and Engineer are the same thing is like saying a car mechanic can design a car/vehicle from the ground up. Not even an Engineer can do that anymore, it requires a team of engineers to design and construct a new vehicle. In at least three different fields. Mechanical, Electrical, and I think the third is Chemical Engineer.
I agree, it is my fault, I assumed you would all magically know what I meant not just read what I typed ...

I meant they use the same skills when I said 'they are the same', not that they are exactly the same thing ...
Rigon wrote:Haven't really given that much thought yet. Still trying to get game mechanics set up.

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What, you aren't ready to answer every question I can think up right when I ask it ... no matter how far off the beaten path my question comes from :mrgreen:
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Treebore »

Lurker wrote:
Treebore wrote:
...

Technicians and Engineers should not be the same thing. Technicians can do maintenance and repairs, probably including a total rebuild of a given system. Engineers design and build the stuff, and lead/supervise the serious repairs.

Saying Technician and Engineer are the same thing is like saying a car mechanic can design a car/vehicle from the ground up. Not even an Engineer can do that anymore, it requires a team of engineers to design and construct a new vehicle. In at least three different fields. Mechanical, Electrical, and I think the third is Chemical Engineer.
I agree, it is my fault, I assumed you would all magically know what I meant not just read what I typed ...

I meant they use the same skills when I said 'they are the same', not that they are exactly the same thing ...
Rigon wrote:Haven't really given that much thought yet. Still trying to get game mechanics set up.

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What, you aren't ready to answer every question I can think up right when I ask it ... no matter how far off the beaten path my question comes from :mrgreen:
If I had the SS rules memorized, I probably would have realized it right away.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

So, as I'm writting these Force powers, I'm comparing them to powers in the book and if I followed how the book does it, the powers that should be cost the least amount of xp to buy are turning out to be some of the most expensive, while the ones that should be more xps are turning out to be less. I may have to rethink the whole thing.

Cheaplives, if you have any pointers, I'd appreciate them.

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Re: Thoughts on StarSIEGE & Star Wars

Post by Rigon »

Anyway, here are my preliminary Force Powers:

-Physical Enhancements (P4 D3 X8, Athletics. Feats of Strength +5, Feats of Agility +5, SFX: Persistent)
-Sensory Enhancements (P3 D2 X7, Awareness. Anticipate +3, Detection +3, SFX: Low light vision, SFX: Persistent)
-Sense Force (P0 D0 X6, Spiritual. Allay +3, SFX: Detect Force) [Detect Force allows the user to sense any Force Points in the area and can tell how "strong" a target is in the Force with a successful Spiritual Check vs the targets Psyche Defense; Detect Force costs 3 bp]
-Lightsaber Combat (P0 D0 X15, Combat. Defense +3, Melee +3, SFX: Deflection) [With a successful Combat Melee check, the user can redirect any single missed blaster attack at a target. Deflection costs 9 bp)
-Danger Sense (P0 D0 X10, Awareness. Defense +2, Detection +2, SFX: Danger Sense) [Danger Sense description per the FM pg 27, Sixth Sense ]
-Healing (P5 D5 X7, Lore. Treatment +5, SFX: Restore 2 Wound Boxes, SFX: Restore 2 Stress Boxes)
-Clairvoyance (P4 D3 X7, Awareness. Anticipate +3, Detection +3, Obscure Knowledge +3, SFX: Farseeing) [Farseeing allows the user to see a person or place that he is familiar with from far away; Farseeing costs 6 bp]
-Cloud the Mind (P5 D3 X8, Persuasion. Bluff +5, Charm +3, Reasoning +5, Tracking +3)
-Energy Manipulation (P8 D7 X15, Automatic. SFX: Deflection, SFX: Force Lightning, SFX: Armor Piercing, SFX: Deals 2 Wound Boxes) [Deflection like above; Force Lightning allows the user to shot a bolt of lightning from their fingers striking a target. Force Lightning costs 6 bp]
-Telekinesis (P1 D3 X6, Spiritual. Feats of Strength +3, Feats of Agility +3, Close Range only, Personal Scale, SFX: Telekinetics) [Description per the FM pg 27]
-Telepathy (P4 D4 X10, Automatic. Medium Range, Vehicular Scale, SFX: Telecommunications) [Description per the FM pg 27]

Well let me know what you think.

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