Turning the Paladin

[Captain_K]

Since an evil Priest (Cleric) can turn the paladin, or so I think is possible and has been discussed in the past, is turn around fair play, can the Paladin turn the evil priest? THEN, can a good vs an evil Cleric attempt to turn each other? Could be a bit of fun.. not sure if the idea has merit. Then what does a turned cleric of Thor act like? A fear spell? Going to be some Atonement going on after..

[Lurker]

I'm on the fence about this. I've thought about it before & like the idea of it. However, I'm sure it will open a can of worms and have multiple unintended consequences ... I'm just not sure whether it is worth it, but again the rabbit gets back around to it being a cool idea ...

Now, for the effect. I can't see it as causing a cleric of Thor running away sucking his thumb ... more like a force that pushes him back and hinders his ability to effect - with spell - the evil cleric that turned him.

[Captain_K]

I too like the idea of a magical barrier they complain about, butt up against and await the 10 round duration to end, doubly mad and ready to fight back directly.

[Ancalagon]

Since an evil Priest (Cleric) can turn the paladin, or so I think is possible and has been discussed in the past, is turn around fair play, can the Paladin turn the evil priest?

I say NO by looking at it as if the undead and paladins are 'servitors' for lack of a better term of the un/holy powers whereas the clerics are the primary agents of said powers. Kind of a hierarchy if you will.

THEN, can a good vs an evil Cleric attempt to turn each other? Could be a bit of fun.. not sure if the idea has merit. Then what does a turned cleric of Thor act like? A fear spell? Going to be some Atonement going on after..

Again I say NO. Let clerics fight it out with weapon / spell / etc. for dominance. Just my 2 cents.

[Go0gleplex]

Good Clerics cannot turn Evil Clerics. Think of it like matter and anti-matter. The energy of the two collide and cancel each other out.

Ancalagon has the right of it with the Paladin turning an evil cleric.

Caveat: If by chance you have some holy/unholy artifact or such involved that specifically allows for said turnings, then game on.

[Captain_K]

So Clerics in the turning world are more fundamentally powerful than Paladins. OK, a good premise and one I sort of agree with and feel history and most folks would agree is "true" or at least implied. Yet the PH description is "turn undead as a cleric of 2 less levels". No detail at all that it is an inferior turning or of lesser status/power. A two level delta is really not that big a deal especially when you consider the Paladin is likely to have a higher CHA (or might) and may turn more of them when successful. Yet the Cleric will for sure have WIS as a prime and have a better chance by 6 unless the Paladin has also taken WIS as a prime. Primes in CHA and WIS could make the Paladin affectively better than, or nearly as good at, turning undead than the same level cleric. I like your point of view, but a 20th level Paladin turns undead better than a 5th level evil cleric.

[Arduin]

So Clerics in the turning world are more fundamentally powerful than Paladins.

In the sphere of wielding a deity's power they are fundamentally more powerful. It's makes their roles quite different as a result. Paladins are more ... "expendable".

[Ancalagon]

So Clerics in the turning world are more fundamentally powerful than Paladins.

In the sphere of wielding a deity's power they are fundamentally more powerful. It's makes their roles quite different as a result. Paladins are more ... "expendable".

Emphasis mine.
Agreed. And paladins are part of the "buckethead" sphere of classes.

[Go0gleplex]

Think of it this way. Clerics are the messengers and blessed wielders of their deity's divine power, having a direct connection. Paladins are champions of the deity and while they also have a divine connection, it is more in the vein of protections rather than wielding the deity's power as a cleric does. Clerics are more of a spiritual embodiment vs the Paladin's martial enhancement.

Comparing a 20th level paladin, whom has won numerous victories over evil for their deity, to a 5th level cleric really doesn't say much. A smart 5th level cleric is going to know they are outmatched and runaway fast, so turning means little. A 5th level cleric dumb enough to stand their ground is likely a raving fanatic with a more than questionable hold on reality already. Sure, even animals can sense a more powerful predator, but some animals, like the honey badger or one nuttered out due to rabies, don't really care and attack anyway.

My thinking any how.

[Captain_K]

Again, I totally get that a Cleric is typically viewed as the A class with their God and Paladin could be viewed as B class, or at least "different" if not subserviant... BUT the PH does not state this "assumption" relative to their ability to turn, they are the same, their only difference being two levels and only in the case of the Paladin, turn-able, per turning write up.

I also agree that I should have simply made my example a 5th Paladin with a 16 WIS as a prime turns undead the SAME as a 3rd lvl Cleric with a 16 WIS prime. Then if the Paladin's CHA is higher than the Cleric he also turns more of them on average. This is likely and thus the "edge" goes to the Paladin in this case. Now I totally agree the experience points of the Paladin at 5th vs the Cleric makes this a level based unfairness to the Cleric.. but well, its the example on the cusp.

Here is an alternate view. Both the Paladin and the Cleric, of say the Finnish folk's Ukko, are God's chosen. They both have "direct links", they both do his bidding, belong to the same cult, the only difference is that one sect compliments the other sect and they work together as two branches of the same tree rooted in Ukko's faith. If viewed this way they COULD be divine equals but each of a different bent. Not what I think I hear above as Cleric over Paladin.

Again, Just an alternate view I'm trying to explore.

I love the input and 99% of the time I enforce and agree with it... but I have a devious plan in mind for "a bad guy" affectively attempting to turn a good cleric... your input and discussions are most helpful and encouraging. So I'm searching for how and why and the details of such an "unusual" event.

So, if you have more insight or ideas on "ways to allow" or "circumstance that might allow" such an odd thing.. I'm all ears. Creativity, something new, and something unexpected or "never done before" is all part of the game for me... I'm about 90% certain how and what I will be doing, but putting the finer points and logical/religious/power details to it always require greater deliberation and "divine" inspiration (from you all - the divinities, demi-gods, and quite frankly demons of the CnC Boards).

Thanks, keep it coming!

[Arduin]

Again, I totally get that a Cleric is typically viewed as the A class with their God and Paladin could be viewed as B class, or at least "different" if not subserviant... BUT the PH does not state this "assumption" relative to their ability to turn, they are the same, their only difference being two levels and only in the case of the Paladin, turn-able, per turning write up.

It doesn't need to spell it out. The clerics abilities vis-a-vis spells alone (when compared to a paladin) makes it so. There is limited pages in any PHB. Stating the patently obvious wastes precious space.

[Treebore]

Personally I don't allow Turn Undead to work against a Paladin, unless they are an Undead Paladin. I have always viewed allowing a living Paladin to be turned as monumentally stupid.

[Captain_K]

It does tend to go against the free willing PC core. I'm trying to think of it as a divinely inspired fear spell..

[Arduin]

It does tend to go against the free willing PC core. I'm trying to think of it as a divinely inspired fear spell..

That's the one reason I lean against it too.

[Treebore]

It does tend to go against the free willing PC core. I'm trying to think of it as a divinely inspired fear spell..

So what about when they reach 6th level and are immune to fear?

[Treebore]

I could just never understand how or why a Paladin, and only a Paladin, would run in fear from the very evil they are sworn to fight and destroy.

[Go0gleplex]

I could just never understand how or why a Paladin, and only a Paladin, would run in fear from the very evil they are sworn to fight and destroy.

That is actually a very very good point Tree. Sort of an obvious one even. No wonder it was missed. lol With that little gem, there really is no reason for a Paladin to be able to be turned. Sounds like one of the movie cliches sneaking into the rules. Maybe rather than be turned, it should be more of a nerf against the opposing divine power.

Major evil cleric "turns" invading paladin, check roll=success. Invading paladin's aura of good is squelched by the overwhelming power of evil before him and his performance and protections suffer accordingly as he soldiers on in an attempt to vanquish the monstrous foe.

[Daniel]

I could just never understand how or why a Paladin, and only a Paladin, would run in fear from the very evil they are sworn to fight and destroy.

This.

I think even if the Paladin was in the grip of fear, they would continue because that is who they are.

[Treebore]

I could just never understand how or why a Paladin, and only a Paladin, would run in fear from the very evil they are sworn to fight and destroy.

This.

I think even if the Paladin was in the grip of fear, they would continue because that is who they are.

Not to mention at 6th level they will never feel fear again.

[Captain_K]

The description makes it pretty much "run at max rate for 10 rounds".. pretty much run in fear, can't run away, cower... so yeah kind of odd. I do think this is a carry over from very long ago... one that may need mending or a better explanation, I'm with Tree on this.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see two Clerics or a Cleric and a Paladin dueling it out with pure divine power, not spells or swords, as a third dimension to the classes.. but as of now.. the one way street of evil Cleric to Paladin with no recourse seems unfair/unjust/without logic.

[Captain_K]

Some kind of divine damper, shaking of faith, weakening the paladin seems OK.. since evil powers are quite often able to beat good powers.. so I have no trouble with a powerful evil cleric tweaking or hurting the paladin for a bit especially if reasonable rolls were made or failed to get into the pickle.

[Treebore]

The description makes it pretty much "run at max rate for 10 rounds".. pretty much run in fear, can't run away, cower... so yeah kind of odd. I do think this is a carry over from very long ago... one that may need mending or a better explanation, I'm with Tree on this.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see two Clerics or a Cleric and a Paladin dueling it out with pure divine power, not spells or swords, as a third dimension to the classes.. but as of now.. the one way street of evil Cleric to Paladin with no recourse seems unfair/unjust/without logic.

Yeah, it would make much more sense for the "energy" of the Turn to be used to harm opposing faiths, regardless of class, if the class is of Divine nature, IE Paladin, Cleric and Druid. But to single out the Paladin? Its never made sense since they started it in 1E AD&D, and I have ignored it ever since.

But to have it be a force to strike opponents of opposing faiths with once per encounter? I can see Clerics and Paladins lashing out at each other with pure Divine Energy from their respective deities. Maybe 1d4 divine energy damage per level on a successful "turn", with the target being at -1 to all attacks, save and damage for a full minute. IE the negative effects of a Prayer spell.

[Captain_K]

Its kind of like the 2,000 year old vampire cowers from the gold cross held by a marginally faithful human... in the "old days' it worked, then in newer versions of the old story the vampire laughs and gets rid of the holy symbol with ease... I kind of see that here... yeah its a rule, but one that does not seem logical, to follow other logics of the game, and would be one of the first things the Paladin looked for a magic item to prevent or make him harder to turn.

[serleran]

It is my belief that the paladin should not be forced to turn and flee, but rather cower. It is not because of fear, necessarily, but that is an easy way to describe it. Rather, it is more of a supernatural shock, the sheer evil and power exhibited by the "opposition" not unlike an exorcist vs. a devil. Mind flashes of pain, anguish, torment... severe temptation that gives the paladin pause. That sort of thing.

Other classes, at least the non-holy, shouldn't be impacted -- they can be feared, magically, but the same sort of innate disgust is lacking.

I dunno.

There are ways to rationalize it. But in the end, I remember fighting to include it primarily because its fun and AD&D had it.

[Captain_K]

The evil cleric gets to roll against the Paladin's level, gets his WIS bonus, would the Paladin get his CHA modifier as a bonus to resist being turned... even then, it only lasts ten rounds.. Then when the Paladin comes roaring back, no longer cowed.. well, the Evil Priest gets to turn again (since he has not failed yet)... now the fun, the Priest did it before does it get easier or harder with each successive attempt? Does the Paladin resist more easily or cave more easily... I think I said it before, the Paladin that gets turned will be "mad at himself".. do penance and possibly need Atonement?

The fun, fun, fun.. I just need someone to play a Paladin... again

[Lurker]

The evil cleric gets to roll against the Paladin's level, gets his WIS bonus, would the Paladin get his CHA modifier as a bonus to resist being turned... even then, it only lasts ten rounds.. Then when the Paladin comes roaring back, no longer cowed.. well, the Evil Priest gets to turn again (since he has not failed yet)... now the fun, the Priest did it before does it get easier or harder with each successive attempt? Does the Paladin resist more easily or cave more easily... I think I said it before, the Paladin that gets turned will be "mad at himself".. do penance and possibly need Atonement?

The fun, fun, fun.. I just need someone to play a Paladin... again

Well Paladins are my favorite class. However I'll warn you. If I'm turned I WILL grab a bow and arrow and pelt the evil SOB with arrows until the turning ends. Then I'll come for blood!

[Treebore]

If I'm turned I WILL grab a bow and arrow and pelt the evil SOB with arrows until the turning ends. Then I'll come for blood!

You mean you will run away as far as you can, or cower in a corner however far away you are able to get.

[BudaZoa]

. I like your point of view, but a 20th level Paladin turns undead better than a 5th level evil cleric.

A 5th level cleric wouldn't have a chance of turning a 25th level Paladin without some exceptional role-playing the turning and a very generous siege bonus/difficultly rating from the CK. But in essence, you are correct in your statement with the exception that evil clerics generally command undead.

As a CK running RavenLoft campaign, I awaited the brave fool who dare to roll up a paladin in my campaign, it would have been epic either way.

In summary, good times how ever it gets played out !

[Captain_K]

My point was that the paladin, per the game, is a better turner than a Cleric just a few levels below the paladin.. as such, could not such a good turner of evil, attempt to turn the evil cleric. Switch the levels, 10th level paladin against a 5th level evil cleric, could not the paladin turn the evil undead wielding priest (necromancer)?

[serleran]

I could see allowing clerics to be turnable.

In my games, I actually have allowed both a druid and an illusionist to turn undead. They did it differently but it made things more interesting.