Damage Question

[AGNKim]

In my game, a nat20 gets you double damage. A high-level Rogue gets quadruple damage from a back attack.

In my last game, the Rogue (who in this scenario does triple damage at his level) gets a nat20 on his attack roll. Rolls 7 damage. Triple is 21. Double that is 42. So a fairly average damage roll (7) morphs into 42 damage. At 9th level (quad damage), it would have been 56. That's crazy. I'm 100% sure this has come up before in my game (since a nat20 has always been double damage and Rogues / Thieves have always had crit damage on back stabs), but I can't recall my ruling. I'm loathe to change the rules when they seem to be overpowered in favor of the players (seems vindictive on my count), but Good Lord that seems excessive.

Thoughts?

[Go0gleplex]

Yeah...that's a bunch. Our group used to use a crit and fumble chart up til about 4-5 yrs ago. Now I simply max damage +2/level for the crit.

[Aramis]

In my game, a nat20 gets you double damage. A high-level Rogue gets quadruple damage from a back attack.

In my last game, the Rogue (who in this scenario does triple damage at his level) gets a nat20 on his attack roll. Rolls 7 damage. Triple is 21. Double that is 42. So a fairly average damage roll (7) morphs into 42 damage. At 9th level (quad damage), it would have been 56. That's crazy. I'm 100% sure this has come up before in my game (since a nat20 has always been double damage and Rogues / Thieves have always had crit damage on back stabs), but I can't recall my ruling. I'm loathe to change the rules when they seem to be overpowered in favor of the players (seems vindictive on my count), but Good Lord that seems excessive.

Thoughts?

I say let the rogue have his fun . Backstabs are quite difficult to achieve. Backstabs with a natural 20 are a work of art

56 HP damage from a very lucky shot that took multiple rounds to set up for a 9th level character sounds fine to me. Let's (very roughly) compare:

A 10th level fighter (admittedly a bit of a jump from a 9th fighter) would get 2 attacks. So assume a +3 bearded axe and 18 STR. The nat 20 would get you 36 max and a normal hit in addition would give an additional 18 max so 54 total. Plus maybe you allow cleaves or other 3e-isms. 10th level ranger on an ogre with +3 bearded axe and 18 STR gets 18+10 for level (combat marauder) x2 on a crit = 56, same as the 9th level rogue backstab. Fireball from a 10th level wizard affects (possibly ) 4-5 opponents, maxes out at 60 hp damage on each opponent. 10th level assassin does succesful death attack on 12 HD opponent who fails a CON save, potentiallly 96 hp damage. Barbarian whirlwind attacks 4 ogres surrounding him in one round...you get the picture



Note- no warranties implied or stated for the quality of the arithmetic above

[jdizzy001]

Let him have it. The odds of rolling a nat 20 are 5%. Just understand that he will nat on a dragon at some point, and he will nat against the big boss, so have a get out of jail free card for your big bads. Just make sure your other characters have their moment to shine as well. Another thing to consider, the assassin has a built in one hit kill move. Granted, it requires some planning to use correctly, but a one hit kill move is way stronger than a 46 dmg atk. Especially when you are fighting something with 47+ hp

[Captain_K]

The assassin gets to "kill" the target.. if they fail a save. Hold Person is a death sentence too. A fighter cranks out that kind of damage in just a few rounds and the thief or assassin take many rounds to set that kind of chance up (usually).. so the damage should not worry you too much.

Ways to soften the blow, all pun intended.
1) They are not multipliers but that many dice rolled. So 2x is two dice. In your case noted, its 6x so six dice then add plusses. Notice here all strength, magic item, etc. points are NOT in the multiplier affect only the BASE damage dice. This averages things. Again, back to your case, I assume was a d6 or d8 so that would be 3.5x6 or 4.5x6 or 21 or 27 point not so bad. Saves the let down of a one roll or the grimace you must hide on the max roll multiplied. PLUS who doesn't love to roll a big handful of dice!
2) Convert to critical and fumble tables. ARMS law are popular, I'm sure everyone here has a favorite set or can point you to them.. BUT to switch to them could be fun for you and the group in the following way.. make your own, together, BUT they are for characters and monsters alike to use. Start small, just a second roll on say a d20 list of crits and fumbles then expand. That table could still have as its norm 2x damage but you could add in some more fun. Expand the table as your PCs and yourself think of more cool stuff to add to your table.
3) Offer the fumble or critical rolling player a choice. "Do you want our classic 2x OR do you want to try twice the dice or my new critical table which has a blank spot on it for you, the first user to fill in with your own personal critical/fumble?" Now you have not changed the rule but given them options AND you can keep that option going PC to PC.. that said, the Monsters get the same choice.

So IF you like making your own table, don't forget to share with us all! Good luck, keep in mind, the "problem" you're having is HUGE fun for the players, its the kind of stuff they will recall for decades, "remember the time I 6x damage the monster! Did you see the look on our CKS face when I killed it! Priceless!" Keep calm and roll on! God I can't believe I just typed that.. sounds like a d20 shirt in the making!

[Captain_K]

Starting small, just 2d6 options for the table for now .. Let's do criticals together.. I'll leave some spaces for all of you:
CRITICAL
2) The big WIFF normal damage -1.
3) Almost WIFFED maximum normal damage, but please add +1 damage for each of your VICTIM'S levels/HD.
4) A spectacular strike, even your victim is impressed, max normal damage +4, plus victim stunned d3 rounds.
5)
6)
7) Major blow to the/a leg (or equivalent), roll one extra dice of damage, and assume max damage on your normal damage; Victim moves at 1/2 normal rate.
8) A blow so great your weapon has embedded/entangled itself in your victim for 2x max possible damage (no cumulative with other multipliers). You, or your victim, must make a STR check to remove weapon (which does half normal weapon damage upon removal).
9)
10)
11) Blow to the face (or equivalent), roll two extra damage dice, PLUS victim cannot see for 3d2 rounds until the blood/goo/etc. stops flowing.
12) Almost Mortally Wounded, Roll three extra dice of damage (4 dice total), and add +1 damage per each of your levels, OR the victim is down to its last hit point (whichever is LESS).

Think how much fun the FUMBLE tables can be... ;}

[Arduin]

Thoughts?

As long as PC's are subject to being crit'ed by monsters, I see no problem.

[Rigon]

I used to do double damage way back in the day, bug have switched to max + 1d8. It has helped with those instances where the rogue nats on a backstab. But all in all, I don't have a problem with the rogue doing that kind of damage every now and then. It just means he good a really good placement for his stab.

R-

[AGNKim]

Yeah, I'll probably allow it going forward. Just seemed excessive.

I did say, after he had done the damage, "Woe be unto you when you encounter a high level Rogue..."

[Arduin]

Yeah, I'll probably allow it going forward. Just seemed excessive.

I did say, after he had done the damage, "Woe be unto you when you encounter a high level Rogue..."

You should make the next several encounters have guys that look "roguish" just to feed the paranoia...

[Mark Hall]

An option I have seen is to increase the multiplier, not multiply again. You add the second multiplier -1, and then multiply by that.

So, someone who does triple damage on a backstab who then criticals for double damage does instead quadruple damage (3 + (2-1) or 2 + (3-1), depending on how you want to think about it). If he had done triple damage and been using a weapon that does double damage against that target AND rolled a 20, it would be 3 + (2-1) + (2-1)... quintuple damage, still very scary, but not the dodecatuple that strict multiplying would give you.

[slimykuotoan]

As long as PC's are subject to being crit'ed by monsters, I see no problem.

Yeah, that's my thought as well.

[Captain_K]

I had always assumed critical hits or natural 20 double damage and fumbles always applied to all or none.. I just reminded my PC "9th Hour" group: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander!" in our game terms that's "What's good for the characters is also for the monsters!".

I love the idea of adding the multipliers, makes sense too.

Here's the sister table start:
Fumbles (2d6):
2) THE big WIFF; you critical yourself with your own weapon, roll on the critical table for damage.
3) Almost THE big WIFF, normal damage to yourself.
4) A spectacular miss, even your victim is impressed with your ineptitude, victim laughs so hard he's affectively stunned for d2 rounds & so are you.
5) A mighty blow that was blocked or otherwise stopped. Weapon if normal breaks and becomes so much scrap. If magical in any way, roll again on this table. Same result breaks even a magical weapon.
6)
7)
8) A "blow" so great your weapon flies off into the distance 2d20 feet in a random direction harming no one and landing where Murphy smiles.
9)
10) A terrible miss, any friend in the area receives normal damage from "friendly fire/damage".
11)
12) A great miss, weapon becomes imbedded or tangled in the surrounding terrain; STR check to free the weapon.

[Relaxo]

yeah, it's fine.
think about it: if you sneak up on someone unawares, you can hit them just right. that's the point of the backstab. and the nat 20 is only 5%, as has been said, so savor it.