15 minutes on wotc forums = I want to watch the world burn

[Zudrak]

(snip) In the gaming community and indeed online much less so - after all, does it affect the cost of a pint of ale at the Green Dragon Inn in Greyhawk?

That all depends upon Robilar's mood.

...And in the end I'd rather argue here about the merits of using 10-15 as an alternative to the challenge base.

Hear, hear! That's I how I (make my players) roll.

[Zudrak]

The only two boards I visit regularly are this one and RPGGeek.com - I visit each daily (several times per day most days, actually) and I find both to be very friendly. I am not afraid to state an opinion about a game or something important to me on either board. I usually watch a board for several months before I create an account and start participating. There is not a huge C&C following on RPG Geek, so I get my C&C fix here and I go there to discuss most other games. These are the only two forums I can stand, the others are... crap.

The list of gaming sites/forums I no longer visit is long... WotC and RPG.net are two on that list. I never really posted on either one because some of the loudest people on there are so toxic.

I visit some hockey talk boards, FB, Twitter, Dragonsfoot, some music talk boards, and here. I see much more political garbage on sports boards than gaming boards, but plenty of it on the gaming boards mentioned by folks in this thread. FB is a disaster area anymore but really only use it to keep in touch with friends and family. Twitter is the best in that one can follow only what he/she wants and even block retweets from users who abuse the privilege.

Last week, I was reprimanded on Facebook for quoting E. Gary Gygax with regards to not taking gaming too seriously (in a thread about the difference between player and PC intelligence, wisdom, and charisma). One dude said hobbies are "serious business" and received lauded support, one accused me of trolling, and the moderators (whom I had written to see if I had inadvertently written something that could be inferred different from my implication) said my post was incendiary. I promptly left the group the next day, as a wise friend said sometimes we need to take a look at the company we keep.

It is a testament to these boards that I still visit as much as I can. I love the C&C game and 99.999% of the talk here is civil. We're all a bunch of loons and hooligans, but that's my peeps.

[Buttmonkey]

The political discussions here and on Dragonsfoot have been on the upswing recently. I'm getting tired of having to add people to my "foes" list so that I don't have to read their stupidity. I come here to talk about gaming and escape the real world's issues, but people just can't stop themselves from "going there" despite forum rules. I've kind of had it. I'd be much better off spending time actually playing C&C and working on my game notes than reflexively checking message boards several times per day. I think my campaign journal thread is where I need to stick for awhile.

This is not me posting one of those ridiculous "You all suck. I'm taking my ball and going home" threads where someone says they'll never post again. But I am definitely going to take a break until things cool down. I have no doubt there are much more politically-charged message boards out there. That doesn't make the gradual degeneration of better boards like this one okay.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my ball home and play with it by myself. No, wait! I mean, I'm taking my ball over to the campaign journals thread.

[Arduin]

Aw, fv<k !t-- let's watch the world burn!!

Which is starting in Europe as we type. Don't walk into the 'burbs in Paris, you suddenly enter a 3rd world crime pit. The city is still relatively safe and nice. Not for long though.

Sorry to hear that.

Yeah, It sucks. Used to live there when I ran a EU division of a multinational. Great place to spend time viewing art and experiencing historic sites. The worst part is all the treasure and blood we spent liberating it and now that is all being thrown away.

[Julian Grimm]

The WOTC forums have always been a pit of whiny PC-ness. I remember 3e discussions where the Ranger's favored enemy ability was racists, that Dungeon Master was a sexist term and that Orcs and other sentient humanoids should never be evil. As well there were constant pushes to 'liberate' the game from it's 'backwards conservative' roots. (Actual terms used)

Any time you wanted to discuss using 3e for classic play styles, or defend the history of the game you would get massively flamed and sometimes banned. I remember one flame war on there were someone suggested using the original Greyhawk boxed set for a setting. The thread was locked with the moderator saying that the only viable Greyhawk was the Living version.

Seeing how WOTC has gotten now I think things have gotten worse.

[Arduin]

The WOTC forums have always been a pit of whiny PC-ness. I remember 3e discussions where the Ranger's favored enemy ability was racists, that Dungeon Master was a sexist term and that Orcs and other sentient humanoids should never be evil. As well there were constant pushes to 'liberate' the game from it's 'backwards conservative' roots. (Actual terms used)

Any time you wanted to discuss using 3e for classic play styles, or defend the history of the game you would get massively flamed and sometimes banned. I remember one flame war on there were someone suggested using the original Greyhawk boxed set for a setting. The thread was locked with the moderator saying that the only viable Greyhawk was the Living version.

Seeing how WOTC has gotten now I think things have gotten worse.

Wow! What a collection of mentally ill people. States should spend more on asylums to treat those type of people.

[serleran]

Really, anywhere there are two people, or even one with some creative self-interpretations, there is silliness and strife and it always comes from someone being an idiot. Fortunately, that is also comedy. And comedy wins.

[Arduin]

I just thought of something equivalent for the opposite side of extreme political views. (although it doesn't really exist in the wild).

"E.G.G. was a commie, anti 2nd Amend puke because he didn't allow all classes to use all weapons."

See what I meant earlier. Ya just don't find that type of ranting insanity on major RPG sites.

[REHowardfanatic]

The WOTC forums have always been a pit of whiny PC-ness. I remember 3e discussions where the Ranger's favored enemy ability was racists, that Dungeon Master was a sexist term and that Orcs and other sentient humanoids should never be evil. (Actual terms used)

According to Tolkien, orcs are elves twisted and made purposely evil by Morgoth. They possessed little or no free will. They were evil because of supernatural intervention (I realize you realize this).

As for Dungeon Master... legions of 50 Shades of Grey fans might argue it was a sexy term!

[Acacius]

The WOTC forums have always been a pit of whiny PC-ness. I remember 3e discussions where the Ranger's favored enemy ability was racists, that Dungeon Master was a sexist term and that Orcs and other sentient humanoids should never be evil. (Actual terms used)

According to Tolkien, orcs are elves twisted and made purposely evil by Morgoth. They possessed little or no free will. They were evil because of supernatural intervention (I realize you realize this).

As for Dungeon Master... legions of 50 Shades of Grey fans might argue it was a sexy term!

That is funny stuff right there.

[Fiffergrund]

How many people posting here remember the old forum policy about political topics?

[alcyone]

This is from the old forums:

[This policy has been mature for a while, and it has performed very well, as intended. However, in light of the recent poll asking for feedback on the policy, some changes have been made effective immediately. - Fiff ]

As the political climate continues to be energetic in the world, this is a good time to issue a clarification (and escalation) about board policy on political topics.

This board is not an appropriate venue for posting political viewpoints, advocacy, or even links to other sites with political content. It is also NOT a venue for the discussion of real-world religious issues. When in doubt, DO NOT BRING IT UP.

People come here to discuss gaming. Don't be one of those people that ruins this for them.

Every election cycle, normal people occasionally find it difficult to restrain their emotions and post something politically incendiary. Great people can become hyper-partisan. It's incredibly destructive.

Example #1: I have been a cast member of a LARP group since 2001 (fantasy, boffer combat). While the experience has been excellent as a whole, in 2004, things became VERY uncomfortable as a set of vocal advocates of a particular candidate decided to assume everyone shared the same views. Naturally, this assumption was poor, and the statement "You'd have to be an idiot to vote for X" was thrown out there by someone normally well respected and liked. One courageous person in the cast answered by quietly saying "I'm voting for X." Naturally, this led to a VERY awkward situation. That courageous person never returned to the cast, which was an enormous loss.

Introducing politics into that setting was wrong. Issuing blank offensive statements like that was worse. Even more horrible was the overwhelming arrogance of those assuming everyone must agree with the "rightness" of their position. The worst offense was driving a talented contributor away from the group.

Example #2:

I was considered joining a wargaming society a few years ago. A political discussion erupted on a mailing list, and people who normally spent many fun hours just playing games ripped into each other. It convinced me not to join the group. I sent a sharply worded e-mail to the mailing list explaining why I would not be joining them. Fortunately, the members seemed to understand their mistake and quickly expressed hope that I would reconsider, but I was already turned off.


The lesson: Real-world political or religious talk drives people away.

The warning: Real-world political or religious talk won't be tolerated on this forum. Period.

A first offense will result in a warning. The second offense will result in a one week ban. A third offense will result in a deletion of the user account and permanent ban of the username.

Since this is posted as a global announcement, this should be considered everyone's warning.

In addition (AND THIS IS IMPORTANT), anyone besides a MOD or ADMIN who RESPONDS IN KIND to a political/religious post will also face consequences. First, a warning. Second, a 1 week ban. Third, a permanent ban.


It is my hope that these fairly draconian rules will discourage people from even THINKING about pushing the envelope. Honestly, I would hope they are unnecessary on this forum, but I'm usually proven right in thinking that they are.

Feel free to send me a PM with any questions. Thank you for your attention.

[Fiffergrund]

Thanks.

We all would like to think that we're refined or educated, and that we've some sort of evolved consciousness that allows us to understand the Way Things Must Be, while everyone else is the Other that can't possibly have a point or two now and then.

The sad part is that so many don't understand that even those answers were fed to them. The social damage that is done from the simple assumption that "no one could possibly disagree" simply can't be quantified.

Gamers, of all people, shouldn't be doing anything to push other people away.

[Zudrak]

Thanks.

We all would like to think that we're refined or educated, and that we've some sort of evolved consciousness that allows us to understand the Way Things Must Be, while everyone else is the Other that can't possibly have a point or two now and then.

The sad part is that so many don't understand that even those answers were fed to them. The social damage that is done from the simple assumption that "no one could possibly disagree" simply can't be quantified.

Gamers, of all people, shouldn't be doing anything to push other people away.

[Acacius]

Thanks.

We all would like to think that we're refined or educated, and that we've some sort of evolved consciousness that allows us to understand the Way Things Must Be, while everyone else is the Other that can't possibly have a point or two now and then.

The sad part is that so many don't understand that even those answers were fed to them. The social damage that is done from the simple assumption that "no one could possibly disagree" simply can't be quantified.

Gamers, of all people, shouldn't be doing anything to push other people away.

That sounds good but sadly it is complete rubbish and a somewhat passive aggressive attack on those that perhaps would rather not see the hobby over run with militant, screaming social justice warrior.

Gamers, like all other people should absolutely be picky as it regards who we associate with. Why would i ever want to hang out with a social justice warrior that is convinced that gygax was a racist or who argues that the drow society disparages feminism or that casting orcs as savages is racially motivated? Those people need to be pushed back to whatever university rec room they escaped from.

I suppose one could argue that this is a political statement I have made but it is not, it is a statement on the state of the game (D&D) and what is driving many of the changes to it as well as the state of the forums devoted to it and the sea of filth that they have become.

[DMSamuel]

Thanks.

We all would like to think that we're refined or educated, and that we've some sort of evolved consciousness that allows us to understand the Way Things Must Be, while everyone else is the Other that can't possibly have a point or two now and then.

The sad part is that so many don't understand that even those answers were fed to them. The social damage that is done from the simple assumption that "no one could possibly disagree" simply can't be quantified.

Gamers, of all people, shouldn't be doing anything to push other people away.

That sounds good but sadly it is complete rubbish and a somewhat passive aggressive attack on those that perhaps would rather not see the hobby over run with militant, screaming social justice warrior.

Gamers, like all other people should absolutely be picky as it regards who we associate with. Why would i ever want to hang out with a social justice warrior that is convinced that gygax was a racist or who argues that the drow society disparages feminism or that casting orcs as savages is racially motivated? Those people need to be pushed back to whatever university rec room they escaped from.

I suppose one could argue that this is a political statement I have made but it is not, it is a statement on the state of the game (D&D) and what is driving many of the changes to it as well as the state of the forums devoted to it and the sea of filth that they have become.

Political statement or not... I think the point is that this forum is not the place to talk about the topic. We have the ability to be a community that chooses NOT to get bogged down in the crap that you are talking about. Let the other game company forums deal with that while we spend our time making this a place where we can talk about a game we love without getting bogged down in all that crap.

[REHowardfanatic]

Who sits at the table and plays is up to the group and GM. You want Social Justice Warrior (love it) then, invite s/hi/rm/s to your game. You want Redneck- go git 'im. You want Refined British Marm, the tally ho! If they are your friend, or curious and not an @$$hole, then invite them. Neither the game designers nor any forum on the internet has any sway over that... Unless you have a Wisdom of, like 4, or something you should not need so basic an idea in writing.
That decision, like almost all others in a game based on pure imagination, is yours. Your game- inside character and out- is as diverse as you choose to make it. That's why these conversations in regards to a game in any place are ridiculous.
Who sits at the table, plays.

[Acacius]

Political statement or not... I think the point is that this forum is not the place to talk about the topic. We have the ability to be a community that chooses NOT to get bogged down in the crap that you are talking about. Let the other game company forums deal with that while we spend our time making this a place where we can talk about a game we love without getting bogged down in all that crap.

You are right. I probably should not have dragged the filth from that other site here.

Mia cuppa.

We should probably get back to arguing over the siege system and how it is best implemented in game.

[seskis281]

Thanks.

We all would like to think that we're refined or educated, and that we've some sort of evolved consciousness that allows us to understand the Way Things Must Be, while everyone else is the Other that can't possibly have a point or two now and then.

The sad part is that so many don't understand that even those answers were fed to them. The social damage that is done from the simple assumption that "no one could possibly disagree" simply can't be quantified.

Gamers, of all people, shouldn't be doing anything to push other people away.

That sounds good but sadly it is complete rubbish and a somewhat passive aggressive attack on those that perhaps would rather not see the hobby over run with militant, screaming social justice warrior.

Gamers, like all other people should absolutely be picky as it regards who we associate with. Why would i ever want to hang out with a social justice warrior that is convinced that gygax was a racist or who argues that the drow society disparages feminism or that casting orcs as savages is racially motivated? Those people need to be pushed back to whatever university rec room they escaped from.

I suppose one could argue that this is a political statement I have made but it is not, it is a statement on the state of the game (D&D) and what is driving many of the changes to it as well as the state of the forums devoted to it and the sea of filth that they have become.

Sorry, but this is absolutely political and exactly what I would say needs to be kept clear of our discussion forums.

I have been a member of the TLG forum community for years, and know many personally from cons. I have had a lively socio-political talk with Davis after a full day at GenCon.... I have had people of strikingly different ideologies as members of my gaming groups. We have even occasionally had a few board discussions that did intersect with some socio-politico things in the real world, because it's hard to completely separate ALL connection when you play a game that has, at it's core, social structure, politics of war and mythic nations, concepts of religion, alignment and even definitions of "good" and "evil."

But with all of this almost always these forums remain civil and respectful. People who know each other and know they might have striking disagreements can nod and say, cool, we disagree, back to the game...

But you are declaring clearly your desire to purify or purge difference, you clearly declare those of us who are politically possibly the opposite to be "trash" and "filth" and to demand that the community "push back" those that don't see things the same as you. You decry politics on the other boards, but seem intent to ignite the flame here... are you seeking to validate that everyone here agrees with you? They won't and they don't, but here we should refrain from openly insulting others.

Add: Which is exactly Fiff's point - to respect others' potential difference and thus, as the original policy states, leave specific politics off as much as possible. I can admit I can and have let myself get drawn in a bit into some threads, but as I said I think it's impossible to completely wall-off our personal ideologies from our gaming views, but refraining from assaults, attacks, name-calling are really what we are wanting, I think, to keep clear of.

[Acacius]

I have been a part of these forums for seven years myself and have no desire to compromise with people who believe Gary Gygax was a sexist, racist, bad guy and that role playing needs more social justice. My commentary was on how the wotc boards have been over run with that exact type of person and that no alternate views are permitted and how it made me feel. If you are the kind of guy that read D3 vault of the drow and immediately felt that the drow having black skin and being matriarchal was some sort of evidence that Gygax was a racist then I would say you probably are the problem, not me. If you are the kind of guy that feels a need to accuse old D&D artist such as E. Otis of misogyny because of their representations of females in armor (chain male bikini) then you are the problem.

[Arduin]

I ... have no desire to compromise with people who believe Gary Gygax was a sexist, racist, bad guy ...

People that spew that stuff are NOT making a political statement of any kind. They are spewing insanity. There is NOTHING political about making IMAGINARY monsters different colors, etc.

[Treebore]

If anyone like that comes here, we will do what we always do, tell them to post politely, or leave. If they think posting such inflammatory opinions are being "polite", they will learn we do not agree. I moderate several communities on G+ and assisted with several on Facebook, before I decided to leave it completely, and I had no problems banning such people. We have/had good communities, and sure aren't/weren't going to let a bad apple or two ruin them.

[Traveller]

An Android forum I moderate puts it quite bluntly.

No Disccussion of Politics will be allowed. If you wish to discuss Politics go to
US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No Discussions on Religion will be allowed either. Please take them to an approriate forum too.
US Message Board - Religion and Ethics

[seskis281]

I have been a part of these forums for seven years myself and have no desire to compromise with people who believe Gary Gygax was a sexist, racist, bad guy and that role playing needs more social justice. My commentary was on how the wotc boards have been over run with that exact type of person and that no alternate views are permitted and how it made me feel. If you are the kind of guy that read D3 vault of the drow and immediately felt that the drow having black skin and being matriarchal was some sort of evidence that Gygax was a racist then I would say you probably are the problem, not me. If you are the kind of guy that feels a need to accuse old D&D artist such as E. Otis of misogyny because of their representations of females in armor (chain male bikini) then you are the problem.

That's the point - no one around here is saying anything remotely like that, so there is no reason to unleash venom upon forum-goers here, or to connect broader language (as has been done) around terms like "liberal," "progressive," or "academic" as pejorative, that's all. If someone holds personal ideology that self-ascribes to these areas of the spectrum, they're going to feel the same impingement on their comfort being here as you do on those other forums, because it (whether intended or not) seems to assert we must somehow be supporting something silly like those extremes you mention if we debate anything as simple as whether it would be nice to have a few art pieces showing, say, a female knight in full armor or not (and I love Peter's and Jason's work, they are NOT mysoginists or evil bastards or anything of the like, and I personally buy lots of prints and they hang above this desk and also in my office at my University - but there's a growing number of women playing RPGs and wanting to see the C&C brand grow it'd be nice to expand the representation of characters a wee bit - nothing political, no grand agenda, just add some greater art representation to reflect the characters as they are decked out in the games we play)

Words themselves become politically charged and can bring the politics onto a forum, that's all I'm trying to say. One of the best things about my experience in the gaming world is that has allowed me to bridge differences and become friends with others who believe differently than me when we sit around the gaming table.

Peace and my all your rolls be high

[seskis281]

If anyone like that comes here, we will do what we always do, tell them to post politely, or leave. If they think posting such inflammatory opinions are being "polite", they will learn we do not agree. I moderate several communities on G+ and assisted with several on Facebook, before I decided to leave it completely, and I had no problems banning such people. We have/had good communities, and sure aren't/weren't going to let a bad apple or two ruin them.

This. Being respectful and polite is what we all must aspire to.

Thanks Tree, and PS Hope you are feeling well.

[Treebore]

PS Hope you are feeling well.

Doing OK, I was in the ER a few days ago with a twisted intestine. Incredibly painful, and recovery has been almost as painful as when I had my gut cut open in February. But things are looking good, for now. Hope you and yours are doing well. I hope to actually make Gary Con again this year, so hope to see you there.

[Acacius]

Damn man that sucks. I remember a few years back you had some pretty serious health issue going on as well or maybe that was your wife... either way I hope you get better soon. I recently got retired out of the fire service after a incident at a high angle rescue. ruptured a few disks in my c-spine and wrecked my shoulder pretty good as well, rotater cuff injury tendanosis, torn labrum ect. been through the first AC diskectomy so now have titanium plates in my neck. (Bonus to AC?) On the one hand i am being taken care of very well but even as I am a older guy I miss being on shift and running the 15-20 calls each day. Been doing nothing but sitting around the house in a brace eating pain meds and re-re-reading my various RPG books. couldnt even go to GenCon this year.

As far as the OP I was venting, did not mean to cause offense here or to drag this forum down to their level.

[seskis281]

As far as the OP I was venting, did not mean to cause offense here or to drag this forum down to their level.

It's all cool.

On to the Green Dragon Inn!

[seskis281]

PS Hope you are feeling well.

Doing OK, I was in the ER a few days ago with a twisted intestine. Incredibly painful, and recovery has been almost as painful as when I had my gut cut open in February. But things are looking good, for now. Hope you and yours are doing well. I hope to actually make Gary Con again this year, so hope to see you there.

Good to hear - hope to see you in Lake Geneva sir!

[Treebore]

Damn man that sucks. I remember a few years back you had some pretty serious health issue going on as well or maybe that was your wife... either way I hope you get better soon. I recently got retired out of the fire service after a incident at a high angle rescue. ruptured a few disks in my c-spine and wrecked my shoulder pretty good as well, rotater cuff injury tendanosis, torn labrum ect. been through the first AC diskectomy so now have titanium plates in my neck. (Bonus to AC?) On the one hand i am being taken care of very well but even as I am a older guy I miss being on shift and running the 15-20 calls each day. Been doing nothing but sitting around the house in a brace eating pain meds and re-re-reading my various RPG books. couldnt even go to GenCon this year.

As far as the OP I was venting, did not mean to cause offense here or to drag this forum down to their level.

Yeah, it may have been either of us, my wife and I are both 100% Disabled Veterans, so both have "issues" crop up. One of the hardest things for me to adjust to was going from a guy with 26 inch arms, 52 inch chest, and 42 inch thighs to being what I called "the pillsbury dough boy." Going from very active, hard working, to practically nothing is hard as heck to adjust to. But I've been slowly fighting back. I wont ever get close to what I used to be, but I am far closer than I thought I ever would be able to be again.