Harvesters Questions

[dulsi]

What is the intended scale for Harvesters? Are characters human sized? Maybe this will be clear when I get to the Wheat Hollow adventure section. Probably not considering it has speeds that seem out of wack with base animal speeds. For example pg 41, the flying speed is listed as 60’ – 240’/round.

What is the damage of unarmed combat? What is the damage of badger's unarmed combat given the very sharp claws?

Is the badger's primal fury always active, usable a limited number of times a day, usable a limited number of rounds?

What about a mouse's move silently? Is that 100% success all the time? Even when running?

Does the rabbit's to hit bonus to unarmed combat every two levels add to his class's base to hit or replaces it?

This product really isn't standalone. I can't see someone playing this without Castles and Crusades or at least making a bunch of rulings on how things work. I read that it was missing spells which I figured I could use some edition of D&D rules for but it seems a lot less complete than I expected.

[kwheatonca]

What is the intended scale for Harvesters?
--This is suppose to be resolved in the future critters book.

Are characters human sized?
-I think its up to you. I would think redwall when you make any assumptions.

Maybe this will be clear when I get to the Wheat Hollow adventure section. Probably not considering it has speeds that seem out of wack with base animal speeds. For example pg 41, the flying speed is listed as 60’ – 240’/round.
-This is likely due to the merging of harvesters and the C&C rules. There are a lot of errors like this throughout and come from the cut and paste nature of importing the classes/equipment directly from C&C. The scale was not thought out before it was published.

What is the damage of unarmed combat? What is the damage of badger's unarmed combat given the very sharp claws?
-I would go by what you normally do in C&C game, perhaps making the badgers claws a die size higher.

Is the badger's primal fury always active, usable a limited number of times a day, usable a limited number of rounds?
- I play it when they get angry without any limits, since it isn't as powerful as a barbarian's rage... and in fact has more penalities (-2AC) than advantages.

What about a mouse's move silently? Is that 100% success all the time? Even when running?
-Use a Siege Dexterity check same as the rogue's ability.

Does the rabbit's to hit bonus to unarmed combat every two levels add to his class's base to hit or replaces it?
-I play it as stacking.

This product really isn't standalone. I can't see someone playing this without Castles and Crusades or at least making a bunch of rulings on how things work.
-I agree, anything that is missing I fill in with C&C. I actually use the classes not included in the harvesters book for NPCs since it models the redwall like theme for some archetypes.

I read that it was missing spells which I figured I could use some edition of D&D rules for but it seems a lot less complete than I expected.
-This has been discussed on this forum previously. There is word document of all the spells somewhere in these forums. I edited it by deleting all the spells of 4th level and higher and importing a bunch of furry art off the net. My daughter uses this for Mouse Druid/Mage.

Hope this helps.

[dulsi]

Maybe this will be clear when I get to the Wheat Hollow adventure section. Probably not considering it has speeds that seem out of wack with base animal speeds. For example pg 41, the flying speed is listed as 60’ – 240’/round.
-This is likely due to the merging of harvesters and the C&C rules. There are a lot of errors like this throughout and come from the cut and paste nature of importing the classes/equipment directly from C&C. The scale was not thought out before it was published.

Unfortunately I don't have C&C so I don't know what standard speeds are in that. Without that information I have no idea what that should be in the Harvesters speed.

Despite all the good things I've heard about C&C, I've held off partially because of the editing complaints people have had. I decided to ignore those complaints because I really like the idea of Harvesters. Now I'm left with a product that I can't use without a lot of work (potentially requiring buying C&C or begging on the forum to find the C&C rules). Why hasn't TLG come out with an official errata with at least things like the speeds are resolved so that people who buy it as a standalone game have some chance at using it that way?

[cheeplives]

If it helps, C&C uses a "standard move" for a human as 30' a round... so that flying speed is 2x to 8x the normal human movement. You could then backwards engineer it if you have the standard movement for a Harvester. I don't have Harvesters, so I can't help there, but maybe that will help?

Are you using a battlemap for your movement? Is there a real problem with movement in your games? Do you do a lot of tactical maneuvering? If so, why not just decide on a "Reasonable" move for everyone based off of hexes/squares and don't worry about what the rulebook says beyond the ratios... it's a quick fix and shouldn't take too much time to do... just a thought.

[Omote]

Why hasn't TLG come out with an official errata with at least things like the speeds are resolved so that people who buy it as a standalone game have some chance at using it that way?

I hope TLG will rerelease the original Harvesters with some updates, especially regarding the concerns brought up here. Such things have been talked about for a while now, but let's face it, Harvesters is probably not a big enough seller to get a full 2nd edition treatment. I hope TLG will though. This game really has so much potential.

~O

[dulsi]

Well according to a thread I found Squirrel = Human and Mouse = Halfling. Squirrels have a move of 6ft and Mice have a move of 3ft. Does C&C have Halflings with a move of 15' or is 20' like 3.5? If it is 20' then there isn't a clear relationship.

Yes I could just make up a scale and whatnot but why should I have to. If I wanted to do that, I could have just used another system and created animal races. Or created my own system. It's not just the movement that is the problem. There is one magic item described but a few are sprinkled in the adventure. None of those have gold and XP value (of course the Gaining Levels section says you get XP equal to GP value of treasure so I don't know why they have both for the listed item). Several monsters are in the adventure but not the monster section and don't include XP. The rattlesnake lists it's XP but it is wrong compared to the monster section and it has an ability beyond what regular rattlesnakes have. Of course I'm assuming XP: 40+3 means 40 + 3/hp like in 1e AD&D which isn't explained anywhere.

It really comes down to the fact that I paid for a complete product and feel I didn't get it.

[cheeplives]

It really comes down to the fact that I paid for a complete product and feel I didn't get it.

Sorry you didn't get the product you wanted. I was just trying to help out with the issue you outlined.

[dulsi]

Sorry you didn't get the product you wanted. I was just trying to help out with the issue you outlined.

I know and I appreciate the help. I downloaded the C&C Quick Start rules and as I suspected it confirms a speed of 20' for halflings.

[Deogolf]

Thanks for the questions! I'm just glad some are taking an interest in it!!

As to the scale, I kind of used the human/elf/halfling scale - large to smallest: badger, otter, rabbit/hare/squirrel/mouse. All these critters were written as if they would be PCs instead of just regular animals, but that will be addressed in future offerings (I hope it happens).

As for claws, I use the following rule: small critters (mice)(1d2/1d3), medium (rabbit/squirrel) (1d4/2d5), large (badger) (1d6/1d8) - the variance being for younger to adult. Again, mostly as if they were NPCs that wouldn't normally use weapons.

Mice moving silently. Normally, I use as base of 75% for natural abilitities (but using the Siege for rogue would work just fine). That should have been in the book, but was missed by moi!

Some of the problems that have cropped up to do with the fact that I expected the adventure to be released with the Basic Rules set which didn't happen. There were a quite a few things in there I didn't particularly care for, but can't really do anything about that now. I can only hope that some corrected re-release will come along.

[dulsi]

There is word document of all the spells somewhere in these forums.

Anyone know where this is? I did some searching but have been unable to find it.

[kajukenbo]

Did anyone ever find the "supported" spell list?
Are there any plans to publish official errata?

Thanks

[Deogolf]

Well according to a thread I found Squirrel = Human and Mouse = Halfling. Squirrels have a move of 6ft and Mice have a move of 3ft. Does C&C have Halflings with a move of 15' or is 20' like 3.5? If it is 20' then there isn't a clear relationship.

Yes I could just make up a scale and whatnot but why should I have to. If I wanted to do that, I could have just used another system and created animal races. Or created my own system. It's not just the movement that is the problem. There is one magic item described but a few are sprinkled in the adventure. None of those have gold and XP value (of course the Gaining Levels section says you get XP equal to GP value of treasure so I don't know why they have both for the listed item). Several monsters are in the adventure but not the monster section and don't include XP. The rattlesnake lists it's XP but it is wrong compared to the monster section and it has an ability beyond what regular rattlesnakes have. Of course I'm assuming XP: 40+3 means 40 + 3/hp like in 1e AD&D which isn't explained anywhere.

It really comes down to the fact that I paid for a complete product and feel I didn't get it.

Concerning the magic items, only items that were not covered in the C&C Player's Handbook were described. I was expecting this game to be released with the Basic Set rules which didn't happen and is the source of alot of the "problems" that peopel have asked questions about. As I stated elsewhere, there are "things" that are different in the World of Wheat Hollow than what one will find in the regular game and they were dsecribed. Remember, the DM/CK is free to change what he/she doesn't like. Also remember, things are not always what they seem. I love tweaking and changing things a bit just to keep players on their toes (i.e. rattlesnake). Many of the creatures/critters in Wheat Hollow are different that what you'll find in the Monsters & Treasure book - that is intended.

[Deogolf]

When the game was first released, there were more than a few spells that made it in that shouldn't have. I've gone through the listing of spells that were in the Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook and have addressed the spells that directly affected animals. I've made a list of them and made changes to the spells that I thought were appropriate. As with all things associated with a game, you can make additional changes as you see fit.



Spell Changes/ Conversions
1. Animal Friendship – change to the same properties as Charm Person.
2. Animal Growth – no change.
3. Animal Messenger – small mammals/birds only. Save – yes.
4. Animal Shapes - no change.
5. Faithful Hound – no change, magical creature.
6. Hold Animal – no change.
7. Invisibility to Animals – no change.
8. Reincarnation – see special posting.
9. Repel vermin – effects rats, voles, weasels, stoats, and mink.
10. Speak With Animals – treat as Comprehend Languages.
11. Summon Animals – spell summons allies of good/evil depending on the alignment of the spell caster.
12. Summon Beasts or Plants – delete beasts, plants only.
13. Summon Familiar – familiars are magical in nature, not real animals. They do not possess the traits of the regular animal in the game (i.e. not anthropomorphic – can’t talk, wield weapons, etc). Still possess the properties listed in the book (i.e. Owl – night vision, superior hearing).
14. Summon Greater Monster – exclude aberrations, fey, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, and shape changers.
15. Summon Lesser Monster – exclude aberrations, fey, and humanoids.
16. Summon Monster – exclude aberrations, fey, humanoids, outsiders, and shape changers.
17. Summon Magical Beast or Fey – exclude fey and all others previously mentioned.
If you have any questions or comments, feel free to post them! Thanks!

[Deogolf]

I've redone the Reincarnation Spell to reflect the Wheat Hollow/Harvesters setting. The spell as it is won't change, but what the individual will come back as has. Check out the table below:


Reincarnation Spell
01-03 Badger 47-58 Weasel
04-09 Bear, Black 59-78 Rabbit/Hare
10-13 Bear, Brown 79-80 Bobcat
14-17 Otter 81-82 Owl (roll d12, see below)
18-25 Squirrel 83-86 Boar
26-28 Hedgehog 87-90 Fox
29-32 Mole 91-96 Wolf
33-42 Mouse 97-99 Wolverine
43-46 Woodchuck 100 CK Choice

Some of the animals listed have been addressed in the Critters & Creatures book I've been working on.

[kajukenbo]

Thank you for the reply sir.

[Deogolf]

Thank you for the reply sir.

You're welcome!

[kajukenbo]

Harvesters was here on the kitchen table when I got home from teaching class tonight.
I know what I will be doing for the next few hours!

[Deogolf]

Harvesters was here on the kitchen table when I got home from teaching class tonight.
I know what I will be doing for the next few hours!

[kajukenbo]

According to the Wheat Hollow blog, the base AC of rabbits, mice, etc. does not appear to be 10.
Does that mean a PC's base AC is the same as the Redux listings on the blog?

The Mouse Redux has an AC of 11.
So does a Mouse Rogue wearing standard leather armor (+1 to AC) have an AC of 11 or 12?

Also, if the racial bonus for a critter modifies an attribute score over 18 (or even under 3) does that stand?
A mouse has DEX +1, so if the rolled DEX is 18 does the PC get a 19?

I generally recommend a quick 1d10+8 [9 - 18] (or an even faster 1d8+10 [11 - 18]) to generate PC attribute scores and I let players place them however they want. I realize this method makes all PCs above average but it is is fast and heroes are usually exceptional anyway. Anyway, 18's are not uncommon rolls by these methods so "19's" are very possible if I am reading the Racial Traits & Abilities correctly.

I have thus far ruled that 19's are OK (in C&C as well) but I was looking for opinions & feedback.

Thanks

[Deogolf]

According to the Wheat Hollow blog, the base AC of rabbits, mice, etc. does not appear to be 10.
Does that mean a PC's base AC is the same as the Redux listings on the blog?

The Mouse Redux has an AC of 11.
So does a Mouse Rogue wearing standard leather armor (+1 to AC) have an AC of 11 or 12?

Also, if the racial bonus for a critter modifies an attribute score over 18 (or even under 3) does that stand?
A mouse has DEX +1, so if the rolled DEX is 18 does the PC get a 19?

I generally recommend a quick 1d10+8 [9 - 18] (or an even faster 1d8+10 [11 - 18]) to generate PC attribute scores and I let players place them however they want. I realize this method makes all PCs above average but it is is fast and heroes are usually exceptional anyway. Anyway, 18's are not uncommon rolls by these methods so "19's" are very possible if I am reading the Racial Traits & Abilities correctly.

I have thus far ruled that 19's are OK (in C&C as well) but I was looking for opinions & feedback.

Thanks

The "redux" series was done to present the animals as NPCs, since they weren't represented with the other animals at the end of the book, my bad. The +/- is for those who would be PCs. I don't think a PC that has attribute of 19 is going to overly skew things at all. Lots of PCs die before making it out of 1st level, even those who have great attribute scores. For PCs, they start with a AC of 10 - sorry, but they have give up something somewhere. First level characters aren't too far removed from being a peon. Besides, most will have some type of armor anyway. ;o)

But, as with everything, feel free to do what you want.

[kajukenbo]

Thanks I suspected that t be the case on both counts.
I just wanted to confirm.
BTW, I gave the mouse PC the Climb (added, Redux) & Move Silently (DEX, clarified via Redux) racial features you mention.

Thanks again

[Deogolf]

Thanks I suspected that t be the case on both counts.
I just wanted to confirm.
BTW, I gave the mouse PC the Climb (added, Redux) & Move Silently (DEX, clarified via Redux) racial features you mention.

Thanks again

Where's the "Like" button in this thing?!

[dulsi]

Did anyone ever find the "supported" spell list?
Are there any plans to publish official errata?

No one has messaged me or post here with the word document for the spells. I kinda doubt there will be an errata. Toll Lord Games lives very much by the DM/CK should just make a decision. (Which isn't necessarily bad. I do prefer a stronger base but decided to try Harvesters because it looks so interesting.)

[Deogolf]

Did anyone ever find the "supported" spell list?
Are there any plans to publish official errata?

No one has messaged me or post here with the word document for the spells. I kinda doubt there will be an errata. Toll Lord Games lives very much by the DM/CK should just make a decision. (Which isn't necessarily bad. I do prefer a stronger base but decided to try Harvesters because it looks so interesting.)

Unfortunately, even I don't know where it is or I would point you directly to it. I also DM/CK things that way. Hopefully, one of these days they will have something out.

[kwheatonca]

Hello,

The document I was refering to was available for a time as some type of C&C SRD.
I couldn't find it again as I was poking around the forums, or the links were broken.

With Deogolf's permission I could post my own harvesters spell book...
but it likely infringes copyright of C&C, not to mention all the art I used off the web.
However, since it was for personal use I did not consider these things.

KAW

[Deogolf]

Hello,

The document I was refering to was available for a time as some type of C&C SRD.
I couldn't find it again as I was poking around the forums, or the links were broken.

With Deogolf's permission I could post my own harvesters spell book...
but it likely infringes copyright of C&C, not to mention all the art I used off the web.
However, since it was for personal use I did not consider these things.

KAW

Post it and save me the trouble!!

I'm not sure about copyright and all that. If you want to email Steve (good luck with that! Ha!) before you post, you could do that as well. I would love to see what others are thinking!

[dulsi]

Spell descriptions from Castles and Crusades are available here. I haven't cleaned up the formatting yet. I thought it was the 2nd printing but the OGL lists 3rd printing. I've applied some errata I found online. Let me know if you spot any problems. It is the complete list of spells not just the levels available in Harvesters. Castle Keeper has been changed to Game Master and Monster and Treasures has been changed to Monster book in order to comply with product identity.