Society Kickstarter?

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serleran
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Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

What say you to the proposition of development, Society side, through use of ye olde KS? All gathered funds to be used to develop a standalone website, complete with native chat, and Society-oriented products or services. Perhaps a stretch goal being the production of maps for the Society World or creation of Crusadacon?

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by CKDad »

I would say that the Society currently lacks people who can dedicate the time to properly oversee and execute such an effort in the sustained fashion that this would call for.

I think gathering money for something like this would be ill-advised at this time.

EDIT to add: I don't mean to cast aspersions on any of the folks involved in the amorphous leadership of the C&C Society, past or present. Life happens, and when circumstances require one to focus their attention on critical life issues, a hobby group is a reasonable thing to push down in the priority list.

I also think that the question of just what the Society is needs to be settled. Is it a purely fan-run and driven group? Is it volunteer adjunct of TLG? What role should TLG play in directing the Society?
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

Quite reasonable. Hopefully, a dialog can occur.

From my perspective, the Society does not "need" company support. Nice to have but unless it is reliable (and honestly, has it been?) it does nothing but constrain.

There are numerous questions that would have to be asked and answered. But, without someone starting it somewhere, it goes nowhere.

We have Domesday again, thanks to the efforts of a few. I'd love to see the efforts of many.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

I've been under the weather so excuse me for not coming to this discussion earlier. This post may be a bit on the long side so bear with me.

First off I want to thank those of you that have been working to rebuild Domesday and the Society. I have been wanting to put more work into both but, I have been having a severe case of real life and have not been able to. It seems I started with the best of intentions but, did not take some things into account. Live, learn and try to do better.

Now, I want to touch on a few things that will be critical of what has happened to the C&CS in the past few years. I am not trying to start an argument, flame war or anything of the sort. I do feel that if we are going to have a serious and productive discussion on the matter then we need to address some things that may be uncomfortable. This is the only way we can make sure the mistakes of the past do not happen again.I will also be coming from my point of view and what I know about certain things that happened. If I am mistaken feel free to correct any mistake.

That said, here we go. . .

I do agree with Serl on 'Company Support'. I feel it has been a failure and the decision to move the C&CS closer to TLG was a rushed decision and one that was not thought out. This move ended quite a bit of very good things that were happening in the C&CS as certain plans could not be completed with us being closer to TLG.

Domesday was including material from non-TLG games,including clone systems, and the C&CS was working toward becoming more like the early RPGA discussions on systems like Labyrinth Lord. We were slowly moving away from the disastrous events of what I call 'The Clone Wars' where there was a definite split between C&C players and the budding OSR movement. While we were still going to focus on C&C, we were open to other systems being included in the umbrella of the C&CS, even the clones some of us decried a year or more before. When the move to a more 'company' C&CS happened that went away.

Furthermore, Domesday was to be changed to a point that it would not be recognizable. Some wanted it to be an addendum to the Crusader others wanted to make changes that I felt were a step backwards at the time. (Ironically, those changes had to become the foundation for the revived Domesday.) The website and forum we were using for all of this was to be dismantled and we were to become a subsection of the TLG site. As you can see, that failed.

Now, to be fair this was not the first time the C&CS faced problems. We had problems from the very beginning getting off the ground and had many false starts. However, the time above that I refer to was when the C&CS was at its most successful and had its best foot forward. There were a set group of officers, bylaws, material being produced and forward movement. The above changes killed all of that.

The recent attempt at a restart has been somewhat successful. We have Domesday back in action, discussion on what to do next has been slowly coming and there seems to be interest. Recovery has been slow but there is recovery. I think we are now at the point that we can look at a more serious rebuild of the C&CS. But the question of how remains.

I honestly think that we need to 'decorporatize' the C&CS and go back to our former, more independent state. I feel that if we continue as we are the C&CS will be on permanent life support and, will be nothing more than a name tagged onto TLG. I really do not want that to happen to the C&CS.

So, do I have suggestions? Yes, I do. I think the most important thing now is getting a codified structure together. New officers need to be appointed and our first decision needs to be whether or not we want to continue with corporate support. From there we move forward in the overall rebuild of the C&CS; Website, Message Board, Downloads, etc. Before we do anything major we need to know how many want to be truly involved and how much time we can dedicate to this. With no 'workers' and no structure anything we try to do will be in vain.

Personally, I would like to see the C&CS revived to its former greatness and I would like to see it grow. However, I am leery of another false start or another fiasco like what killed it in the past.
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Sir Ironside
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Sir Ironside »

serleran wrote:What say you to the proposition of development, Society side, through use of ye olde KS? All gathered funds to be used to develop a standalone website, complete with native chat, and Society-oriented products or services. Perhaps a stretch goal being the production of maps for the Society World or creation of Crusadacon?
Kickstarter doesn't do money/charity drives from my understanding. They only do product stuff. It is also my understanding that www.indegogo.com does allow money/charity drives.

I've never tried to put up anything on the two, so my sources could be wrong, but in case I am right you have the two sites.
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serleran
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

Thanks for the link.

The overall idea is to produce some sort of product, like Domesday in print, for example. At least from my limited and useless way of seeing things.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Dungeoneer »

I have been a lurker on the boards more than an active participant. I've been tackled by real life and other responsibilities (and other hobbies) that are now starting to ease up. I've been wanting to take a more active role in contributing to the C&CS as a whole for a while now. I am definitely one of those who wants to step up.

The problem I see with C&CS at the moment is very little centralization and cohesion of effort or thought. I only came into C&C last year so I don't know much about activity and such beyond the last few months and the Domesday releases. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever ends up happening I'd like to help. :)

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Treebore »

Anyone who is being honest knew that having the Trolls become involved in the Society was a mistake. They prove that with all the problems they have delivering on their main products. They are the worst with Crusader. So to have thought that having them becoming involved with the Society was a good thing was wishful thinking at best. The Society clearly needs to stand on its own, as a separate entity, independent of the Trolls control.

I'll support, even contribute, what I can. Just realize with how much difficulty I have had running and playing in my own games reliably, I won't be what I would call "reliable support". I'll just do what I can, when I can. If that is good enough, then count me in.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

Treebore wrote:Anyone who is being honest knew that having the Trolls become involved in the Society was a mistake. They prove that with all the problems they have delivering on their main products. They are the worst with Crusader. So to have thought that having them becoming involved with the Society was a good thing was wishful thinking at best. The Society clearly needs to stand on its own, as a separate entity, independent of the Trolls control.
I have to fully agree with this. While I like C&C and I think deep down the Trolls are great guys, I have a hard time supporting quite a bit of what the company has done in the past. I won't air those criticisms here since those that have been here awhile know what they are.

To be completely and bluntly honest, one of the reasons I backed out of the former incarnation of the C&CS was due to knowing what would happen when the Trolls became 'more involved'. Though I am willing to get things going again I most definitely do not want to see a repeat of the events that lead to the decline and 'fall' of the old C&CS.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, to be clear, I am not saying I do not like Steve, Davis, Todd, etc... I've just come to accept the reality that is the Trolls. I even try to humor it up a bit with my comments about "Troll time" etc... The reality is they struggle to handle what they have to in order to stay in business. They are not capable of handling Crusader, let alone the Society, in a satisfactory manner. That is simple reality. No insult, slam, whatever. Just simple realism. They do not have the time/resources for the Society, and likely never will. So whatever happens, the Society needs to move forward as its own thing. Not reliant on the Trolls what so ever. They too can help when and where they can, but they cannot be relied upon any more than I can be. Like me, they already have too much on their calendars. Heck, when you get down to it, everyone likely does. This is a part/spare time venture, period.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

When I had the money to make orders and before the online store started I used to call in my orders and have had some great conversations with Steve. I have no doubt they are great guys and believe in what they have created. However, the time has come to be completely honest and that includes some constructive, if not blunt,criticism of what happened with the C&CS. As I said before I am not trying to start a fight, flame war or troll. But, it is time to begin to address the elephants in the room.

As far as time goes; I have a bit more than most people do. I can do some of the work needed to get things going but, I can't do it all. I try to keep writing for Domesday but, sometimes the ideas and creativity dry up. Unless we or TLG gets someone with experience of putting something like this together (Like Mentzer did with the RPGA) it will be a part time venture for all of us.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by DeadReborn »

Dungeoneer wrote:I have been a lurker on the boards more than an active participant. I've been tackled by real life and other responsibilities (and other hobbies) that are now starting to ease up. I've been wanting to take a more active role in contributing to the C&CS as a whole for a while now. I am definitely one of those who wants to step up.

The problem I see with C&CS at the moment is very little centralization and cohesion of effort or thought. I only came into C&C last year so I don't know much about activity and such beyond the last few months and the Domesday releases. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever ends up happening I'd like to help. :)
I couldn't have said it any better. I haven't contributed much, save one mediocre article, but I'm throwing my hat in the ring as well. Proofreading, layout, articles for Domesday. Mayhap running games online in Hangout/Roll20/etc. to raise awareness to the Society. Whatever is needed, please, by all means, call on me for anything.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Go0gleplex »

As someone who was once quite involved with producing material on a regular basis...I would like to continue being as involved as I was. However, real world commitments force me to utilize my time more for my day job than my hobby. At least at present.

That said, good or ill with the Trolls involvement really doesn't matter at this point. What matters is what to do to get people actively involved when and where they can...and wanting to be involved with the C&CS. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of great ideas...but also a lot of them falling flat because noone was involving themselves. I can't see any of that changing until there is continuing involvement by more than just a few core people. That's why the Friday night chats died. Lack of participation. It go so depressing being the only one there most of the time that I myself stopped frequenting the room. It's nice that the Domesday is being revived, but before you put a lot of effort into other things. Figure out how to get more people more involved. More stuff happening will grow from that. (my two cents anyhow)
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Go0gleplex wrote:That's why the Friday night chats died. Lack of participation. It go so depressing being the only one there most of the time that I myself stopped frequenting the room.
I went to one of those after I signed up. There were two people on it, I said hi, they said hi, then ignored me pretty much after that. That experience soured me and didn't bother to try again.

And, no I won't say who they were, it isn't important.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by DeadReborn »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Go0gleplex wrote:That's why the Friday night chats died. Lack of participation. It go so depressing being the only one there most of the time that I myself stopped frequenting the room.
I went to one of those after I signed up. There were two people on it, I said hi, they said hi, then ignored me pretty much after that. That experience soured me and didn't bother to try again.

And, no I won't say who they were, it isn't important.
That's a real bummer. The few times I popped in, there were very lively discussions on varied topics that everyone participated in, except for the occasional shy person.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by alcyone »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Go0gleplex wrote:That's why the Friday night chats died. Lack of participation. It go so depressing being the only one there most of the time that I myself stopped frequenting the room.
I went to one of those after I signed up. There were two people on it, I said hi, they said hi, then ignored me pretty much after that. That experience soured me and didn't bother to try again.

And, no I won't say who they were, it isn't important.
If it was me, my apologies. That represents about the pinnacle of my conversational skills.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by CKDad »

I'm in general agreement with most of the points expressed here.

I will say that I'm coordinating the "C&C Society Tournament" at GaryCon in large part because I knew that the usual parties who'd have carried that torch simply couldn't commit to it - life happened and their priorities were (correctly) not running a gaming tournament. I'm making no claim to any leadership role beyond being the guy standing there who saw a hole that needed plugging. :)
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

If you guys want, I can add a Society section to Serl's Corner... it's a dead place, so maybe some traffic would be interesting.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

That wouldn't be a bad idea. I have also thought about setting up a free forum using InvisionFree or another service to get a forum started for us.
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

OK. New section on my boards created. Registration is required to post, not to read.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

Registered, joined and ready to annoy....err help. :lol:
Lord Skystorm

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moriarty777
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by moriarty777 »

An interesting thread thus far...

What does all of this come down to? More of the same. Here's the way I see it...

The 'peak' of the society was when Serl took an active hand at it and when people cared about putting the Domesday together those first few issues. Sure... people got busy and others lost interest. One thing I have heard others mention in the past was 'why should I contribute to something for free when these efforts could get me paid'. Really, I get that... when you have little time to devote into these things, some feel that their time is worth something and there is a general 'lack' of appreciation for something being given away freely.

Domesday fell flat along with the rest of the society and if there is blame to go around, there really is not point in trying to assignment to any particular party since it doesn't help our present situation.

Since a little discussion last year, I have put out two issues of the Domesday and will be putting out a third by the end of this month. While shorter than some of the older issues, I think they look pretty sweet and it seems that some people have taken notice since there has been at least a bit more interest in contributing. I think it also helps that I have been able to keep to a fairly strict schedule as far as release dates are concerned. Overall, I really hope this trend continues. But getting the community involved is an uphill battle but I believe that continued work on the Domesday will give something for the community to rally around. And lord knows I have tried to get more people involved in community in general. I even had a contest last year and paid prizes out of pocket for something that I get very little submissions for. Incidentally, one of these I've decided to include the the upcoming issue of the Domesday (space permitting).

Personally, speaking I have spent considerable time and some resources for the stuff I have done for the Society and will continue to do so. This is also why I try to be regular with various posts on my blog. If this new forum will help than I applaud it. If there is anything that anyone would love to see happen for the society, then please step up! The more that does so, the less work there will be to pass around and the more we will be able to do as a whole.

Kudos to those who have worked and done stuff for the Society and kudos to those who decide to step up and help a bit going forward!

M
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Hal G
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Hal G »

If you need centralization and a focal point to put stuff out, we (Samurai Sheepdog) may be able to help. If after costs there would be some profit to be made I may be able to convince my business partner to add this to our C&C line, we are already working on 3-4 releases this year, if this was worked on separately and all we needed to do was do layout and get it up for sale, we may be able to come to some sort of arrangement. Drop me a message if this sounds remotely interesting.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by moriarty777 »

Thanks Hal,

But I don't think centralizing / focus for the purpose of releasing and distribution of material is the problem. The approach to the Domesday for instance has been COMPLETELY NON-PROFIT up to now and I don't think we'd be changing that anytime soon. Even if there was a physical release planned, for convenience sake and due to the relatively small need, POD would probably be the best way to go. At the present time, Arcana Creations is currently doing the layout for the small little 'zine but this may not always be the case after issue 8 (Spring 2013 issue) as this will be the fourth and possibly the last issue I do. I don't know about other projects at this time but maybe some discussion about this can be carried over on the forum space that Serl created.

That said, I am but a single voice of the Society -- if the rest wish to move towards a different direction or have other ideas, I'll be happy to pass the torch to someone else.

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Hal G »

No worries, just throwing ideas out there. Good luck!

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by seskis281 »

Hi all,

For those who are new around here I am one of those that used to be heavily involved, even making an effort to help lead things as Robert (Serl) did earlier when I first came to C&C, and with what Pat (Moriarty) is doing now. I am not around much as some know my life and schedule became very complicated over the years. I tried to make a comeback in terms of involvement after a very reinvigorating GaryCon last year, but as they say the best plans of mice and men.... suffice to say an ever-increasing set of jobs duties coupled with my wife's horrid medical year (we spent 1/3 of the summer in hospitals, getting to hear "we're in the danger zone of blood loss... and we don't know why...."), back into the insanity of being a theatre person and campus administrator at the same time after that, dealing with a daughter who has hit "that age" of teen years, and I have remained pretty much AWOL from things sadly.

I do have to admit that reading through this thread struck a nerve of sadness and did peal a little scab I thought would've been healed personally. One of the things that makes the "well-organized and run" part of the Society a major issue is that it, too really accomplish such a thing, you need a sustained structure with dedicated people handling different tasks and endeavors. That can happen in bursts, like when I did the first 2 Domesdays, Piper did the 3rd, I did the 4th. Unfortunately, as has been noted, is that sustaining the activity was a problem due to what happened in our lives. The part that still does get a bit raw is also the fact that we, gamers, tend to be very strongly opinionated and really know what we like, don't like, etc. and producing work takes time and energy and is hard even when people are doing it professionally, and while it is gratifying to hear back that people appreciate the work, you can't count on that but you can count on the voices telling you what you're doing wrong, what you should be doing, etc. It's hard, especially to maintain and sustain. When it became clear we couldn't continue with the format of the Domesday as we were trying, I tried to change formats - and got blasted for it - to a smaller news-zine format. I bear no grudges, I have no animosity towards anyone, but it was hard reading some of the things written in the heat of the moment on other blogs and strings when I just loved C&C and was trying to help.

I have come to realize that, as much as it's life that interferes with my involvement around here, some of this drove me away as well. I commend beyond belief Pat and everyone who have jumped back in to do the newest Domesdays. I know how much work and dedication to our community it takes. I also know, and Pat kind of says, again that it's going to be hard to sustain. I think that really, if the Society is still trying to find an identity after all these years and incarnations and bursts, that maybe it needs to be accepted as the loose confederation of enthusiasts rather than trying for an organizational structure that's just not really possible without the likes of Frank Mentzer creating RPGA (which isn't even remotely possible in scope comparison....).

I do have some thoughts and suggestions - but my wife is pressing me that it's time to leave so I will come back this afternoon and posit some humble suggestions.

John
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Treebore »

I think the first mistake we made was to try and live up to the schedule of a "for profit" magazine. As pretty much everyone has stated, this is ALL done on a volunteer basis, with any spare time we MIGHT have. Trying to keep to any kind of schedule with that kind of resource commitment is not going to happen.

On the flip side, we also NEED dead lines. Otherwise pretty much everyone here will never finish whatever they promised to contribute.

So I think having 7 issues to show over 7 years of effort from a completely voluntary pool of contributors is pretty darn good. Granted, it would be even more awesome if we had 14 or even 28 issues to show for it, but the fact that we have what we have is still pretty awesome.

Anyways, do we have any kind of guidelines put up as to what kind of content is wanted? I'd like to read it over and see what I can get started on.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by moriarty777 »

First of all, thanks John for the kind words. And yes, we are all heavily opinionated but I think we all mean well. ;)

Reading back my earlier post, I didn't mention anyone else by name beyond Serl but this was not to suggest that your efforts, or Pipers, and several other active members did any less. The energy and flurry of activity was fairly consistent the first few years with the peak that 'started' with Serl. Your efforts were just as critical to the earlier successes we saw. I just wanted to make that clear for readers who aren't completely aware.

On the important point of Sustainability is a tricky thing as well as the capacity of learning some lessons. I think people that have been involved in some fashion since the first issue of the Domesday know this full well and we have all had a few lessons learned.

Treebore -- time and deadlines are two important factors. The first few issues of Domesday came in spurts and grew and grew. The page count for the first four issues are pretty impressive actually. Releasing them was a bit more sporadic for sure but it was also a given since it was a volunteer project. That said, I believe that Domesday will thrive a bit more if releases are more regular even if they end up being shorter. In fact keeping them shorter in order to meet a quarterly schedule and keep it on time has both been challenging and also very rewarding because it's getting done.

Let me just state that *ALL* the work that has gone into the Society -- whether it is for the e-zine, and community release, or game demos, is appreciated and all of those active people deserve a good pat on the back.

However, now that you bring it up, I acknowledge that there is no 'official' set of guidelines set up for content or anything really. We kind of took that part for granted a bit given that this is content developed by gamers for gamers. I think I will draft up some actual submissions guidelines for the upcoming Domesday as well as post them here.

As for the rest of the society, I certainly don't have the answers but I'm willing to listen to ideas and help be part of the solution. In the meantime, I will continue to man my post and keep going with the Domesday but look forward to better days ahead. :)

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serleran
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by serleran »

Conversation.

That is what is needed for now.

Direction comes after we know where to start, or what to start.

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Julian Grimm
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Re: Society Kickstarter?

Post by Julian Grimm »

I have a lot to add but I am not ready to bring it forward. The one thing I do agree with is that the C&CS needs to move away from the idea of being another RPGA, Pathfinder Society or HMA. I think a loose knit group of fans works best for what we are and the resources we have.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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