Attribute increases

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jdizzy001
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Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

Good day all,

I am new to c&c and unless i am mistaken, i noticed there is no way to improve your attributes as you level. Mainstream d20 indicates one or two stat increases every forth level. I was thinking of using the pendragon experience check method. This method allows for possible stat increases every level, if you're really lucky.

In its simplest form, if you do something awesome the CK would tell you to mark the attribute you used to perform your awesome feat. Once you level you would roll 1d20 for each marked attribute. If your check (no modifiers) exceeds X (X = current attribute value) the stat increases by one point.

IE- i have a str 12. When i level my CK allows me to make a str check (no modifiers). I roll a 15, success! My str permenantly increases to 13. If i fail the check, no increase. I can do this once for each stat the was awarded an experience check during the previous level.

How do you handle attribute increases, or do you?
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Volomyre »

I don't.
The way I have played D&D, AD&D and will play C&C is with attribute raises being rare.
It would require legendary magic items.
Even wishes only raise them by a fraction.
I have played and ran games like this since the 80's and no player has ever had an issue.

But I have little experience with the newer editions of D&D.

Just my humble opinion.

Volo.

P.S. In the Castle Keepers Guide they have guidelines for attribute increases at the higher levels... I would use those.

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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Omote »

I use a system of attribute increase somewhat similar to 3E. Characters can choose special abilities or increases at certain levels of experience. One of those choices is a simple +1 to an attribute.

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jdizzy001
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

Thanks for the replies. Here is my question. With stat increases being rare, regardless of method, and with the 12/18 rule, doesnt this result on lots of pc failure? I can see at higher levels, Say 8, when the pc has a large modifier they can add to their dice rolls that the pc can succeed, but dont they fail at lot at lower levels? If my secondary stat is a 10 and i'm trying to do anything, it seems a cb of 18 is harsh not to mention the cl you stack ontop of it. Am i missing something?
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by redwullf »

jdizzy001 wrote:Thanks for the replies. Here is my question. With stat increases being rare, regardless of method, and with the 12/18 rule, doesnt this result on lots of pc failure? I can see at higher levels, Say 8, when the pc has a large modifier they can add to their dice rolls that the pc can succeed, but dont they fail at lot at lower levels? If my secondary stat is a 10 and i'm trying to do anything, it seems a cb of 18 is harsh not to mention the cl you stack ontop of it. Am i missing something?
Secondary attribute checks do fail a lot at lower levels. To understand why this happens, take a look at original AD&D or B/X D&D ability checks, such as Cleric turning undead or, more dramatically, Thief skills. Quite simply, these abilities suck at lower levels, but improve to great heights as the PCs become powerful. C&C mirrors this.

Let me say that I can understand where your question is coming from. 3x and 4th ed characters are far more successful at lower levels than what you're seeing in C&C. Where C&C attempts to capture the feeling of old school play, "pathetic" characters are part of that package. Low level PCs have a long road ahead of them, and part of the challenge and joy of playing a rules light, "old school" type game is this journey. If your PC survives to high levels (where "high" level is 10 or more), you really feel like you've accomplished something. 4th Ed characters can waltz through most of their "challenges" with little real threat. This is rewarding in its own way, where new players get a great sense of accomplishment and power right out of the gate, but other players prefer the feeling of having overcome the hardships of young, inexperienced characters...

...welcome to C&C. :)
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Omote
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Omote »

C&C is also a game where, IMO, you do not need to roll attribute checks as often as the newer editions of D&D. Of course you could roll the dice for every little thing that a PC attempts, but realize that these types of checks in C&C fail more often, particularly at lower levels. In older editions of D&D the DM did not call for that many types of checks. C&C doesn't have an included skill system in the PHB. If the character should reasonably have a certain type of skill set, then at the CKs descretion can do those types of skills. In C&C you shouldn't make a skill check to jump up a few feet and pull your self up to a ledge. This is heroic roleplaying. Now, if the character needs to jump 10 feet across a gap, well then perhaps you'll want to call for a STR or DEX check. The reason for checking against this is because there is a serious consequence for failure. Attribute checks were not designed to be a part of C&C that drive the game. The characters and the story drive the game, not endless meaningless or insignificant rolls to see if some minor action succeeds.

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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Arduin »

jdizzy001 wrote:How do you handle attribute increases, or do you?
Same way I did in 1st & 2nd Ed D&D. Go search for & wrest a magic item from a VERY dangerous opponent...
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Relaxo »

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jdizzy001
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

So you only really need to check when an element of failure could result in, shall we say, disaster? That is a bit different than I am used to.

wow, things sure are different on this side of the fence. I look forward to trying this game out! I haven't played an old school game since I was 10? Sadly I had no idea what was going on then. However, I imagine 17 years and 10+ gaming systems later I'll have a better grasp on things.
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Harlock »

Don't be afraid to go by the book. Give it a shot and see how it works out. These sorts of rules are what made "the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game" the world's most popular roleplaying game. There must be something to them, right? :)
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Sir Ironside »

Do not take this as any kind of comparison on what is right and more of what is different. I take no issue on how someone has fun.

If there is one thing I've gathered from the 3.5/Pathfinder/4e crowd is failure are not given their due and running away is almost always not an option.

What do I mean about failure not given their due? To me failures can have just as many interesting and game driven outcomes as successes. It just isn't a dice roll but a good GM knows how to infuse some colourful descriptions that have real consequences for further play. You don't just miss the jump, it is how you missed the jump. A horrible miss could have you bounce of the other side and plunge to the ground. A not-so-horrible miss could have you clinging onto part of the rock face, with one hand and precariously close to letting go or the rock face is giving way. Both make subsequent decisions by you and your party temporarily revolve around "What just happened". Now add bow carrying goblins on the other side... :twisted:

In my old AD&D days it wasn't uncommon to run across a monster that was clearly out of your league. Though they weren't put there as a wandering monster, there was a reason they were there. Whatever the reason (Guarding a magic item you need, blocking your path to where you need to go.) you didn't test your luck and chose to run and fight another day. It also encourages players to use their characters for other than a fighting machine. How else could you get around the monster? Is there someone else that could assist you... at a cost? Is there another, more treacherous path? Is there a way to lure the monster away? Tons of different options than killing to solve problems.
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jdizzy001
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

Iron side has a point. Being an avid 4e player, i can understand what you mean. The DMG for that game is pretty clear that you want your players to be able to overcome your encounters. In the supplement material they talk about running away, but for the most part, failure really isnt an option.

My next concern is power creep. One thing i have never liked was the way high level chars can just murdalize everything and succeed at everything. What does everyone do to compensate for the superhero status pc's tend to achieve at higher levels? I always cite boromir as what i am looking for. He in every sense of the word was a high level fighter and yet a number of uruk-hai took him out of the picture.

Also, on a side note, does c&c compensate for dynamic atk values vs static def? I have a real rough time with the "we're both lvl 10 and we never miss each other cause our def hasn't changed since level 2!" does anyone ever have that concern?
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Omote »

jdizzy001 wrote:... murdalize ...
First off, you get mad street cred for saying "murdalize."

Second, you'll see that in C&C when you are a high level character going up against a high level opponent, the saves aren't always easy. If your high level PCs are going up against low-level, low power scrubs, then the PCs will usually have an easy time with the encounter. But C&C doesn't work that way with high level encounters. The saving throws against high level bad guys are usually equal to the opponent's level. That keeps the game from becoming a cake-walk at higher levels. High-level, high power opponents are to be feared, regardless of the character level. Be sure to watch out for those high level wizards... they will make you pay dearly.

If you have to run, do it, and live to fight another day.

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Julian Grimm
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Julian Grimm »

I used to think the game needed an attribute increase option but, the game as written wouldn't support it very well. To see what I mean let's look at the difference between the C&C and D20 mod tables:

Code: Select all

    C&C                        D20
             2-3  -3                   2-3   -4
             4-5  -2                   4-5   -3
             6-8  -1                   6-7   -2
            9-12   0                   8-9   -1
           13-15 +1                 10-11   0
           16-17 +2                 12-13  +1   
           18-19 +3                 14-15  +2
                                        16-17  +3    
                                        18-19  +4
As you can see, if you have an average die roll for a score a +1 to an ability score in C&C doesn't do much unless you have a roll of 8,12,15,17 or 19 even if you grant this every 4th level it can be painfully slow to see any result from this. In d20 the system is set up where a +/- 2 changes your bonus and you can easily see a bonus increase in, at most, 8 levels. This is why you see so many rules in D20 altering things by 2, especially with attribute damage and demi-human adjustments.The idea behind the D20 attribute raises seems to be to get the bonuses higher, with C&C this is not an easy thing to do. (This is why I houseruled out the +/-1 adjustments for demi's in C&C as they do nothing)

The only ways I could see the attribute raises working is by either going by how it is done in D20 or going back to the idea of AD&D style ability checks. As C&C stands it doesn't work well and just adds bookkeeping.

Edit: Hrm, my table didn't work so well.
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

I got my books today and have spent a long time looking them over. The CKG answered many of my attribute questions as i could see three additional attribute distribution patterns. The monster & treasure book included magic items that specifically increased attribute scores, and i realized that standard play seems to stop around level 12. Thats great! I get tired of modifier bloat and with a +10ish attack bonus it seems most monsters will be usable through the entire campaign. I will admit though, i still prefer bounded accuracy to ascending accuracy.

Final thoughts: these books are AWESOME!
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by redwullf »

jdizzy001 wrote:Final thoughts: these books are AWESOME!
It pleases me to hear this. ;)
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jdizzy001
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by jdizzy001 »

next question. does the fighter's combat dominance come into play often? it seems after a certain point in your campaign the ck would stop throwing 1HD baddies at the party
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Arduin »

jdizzy001 wrote:next question. does the fighter's combat dominance come into play often? it seems after a certain point in your campaign the ck would stop throwing 1HD baddies at the party

At lower through lower-mid levels it does. But, at 10th level the Fighter gains extra attack (usable against all HD creatures)...
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Omote »

Let's say your high level fighter comes up against 20 kobolds. In newer versions of the D&D game this is probably not a big deal. In C&C, when a 10+ level fighter has to fight 20 kobolds, there is a little bit more concern. Sure, the fighter is going to probably hack them apart, but not all of them. Some of the kobalds will hit. The figther is going to take damage. This fighter is not an instant cake walk.

As CK, I usually have some lower level enemies thrown into the mix. The entire world is not populated with advesaries that are exactly the same level as the PCs. Dungeons for PCs of high level can't possibly that many liches in there. The has to be lots of orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc.

That's just my take on it.

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Re: Attribute increases

Post by zombiehands »

jdizzy001 wrote:Good day all,

I am new to c&c and unless i am mistaken, i noticed there is no way to improve your attributes as you level. Mainstream d20 indicates one or two stat increases every forth level. I was thinking of using the pendragon experience check method. This method allows for possible stat increases every level, if you're really lucky.

In its simplest form, if you do something awesome the CK would tell you to mark the attribute you used to perform your awesome feat. Once you level you would roll 1d20 for each marked attribute. If your check (no modifiers) exceeds X (X = current attribute value) the stat increases by one point.

IE- i have a str 12. When i level my CK allows me to make a str check (no modifiers). I roll a 15, success! My str permenantly increases to 13. If i fail the check, no increase. I can do this once for each stat the was awarded an experience check during the previous level.

How do you handle attribute increases, or do you?

I have done this (actually I had them roll Primes every level and non primes every even level). It worked great. I think next time I might let humans roll every attribute every level and demihumans roll only primes every level and non primes on even levels.
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Re: Attribute increases

Post by Treebore »

I have rules to "train" your attribute up to your racial maximum, usually somewhere between 17 to 19. To go beyond that requires magic, such as Tomes, Manuals, Gauntlets and Belts/Girdles.
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