Domesday: Resurrection

[Julian Grimm]

Since interest has been showing for the resurrection of The Domesday Book I decided to start a thread on the subject. Right now the ideas are still forming and nothing is official yet. Those of us that are spearheading this are still looking at what to do and how to do it. I have done some brainstorming and here is what I have come up with:


First, the original Domesday Book was a fan driven production. All the material came from the fans of certain games and usually came from their own personal games. This is something I want to see return to the book. It does not matter if you are an amateur, semi-professional or professional you are free to contribute. The only thing that I feel should not be there are articles that are an 'advertisement' for paid material. Reviews are fine, but an article that basically says that the really cool stuff is in my book should be out of bounds.

Second, all material and articles will be the property of the author or creator. The book should be considered as a group of freelancers who retain the rights to the material they contribute. The only 'staff' the book will have is the group that does the editing, layout and similar. The staff can also freely contribute if they want to, and should if submissions are low.

Third, I think the new version of the book should be quarterly. This can give staff and writers time to come up with material. You can have two months for submissions and a month for layout and editing. I think this gives a good amount of time to get the material together and put together a decent publication.

With this groundwork we can look at content and page count. This has always been a tough part, in my opinion page count at the beginning should be based on submissions. The downside of this is that you can have a giant book one time and a thin one the next. The original run of Domesday started at 24 pages and topped out at 62. Personally, I think we can do a quarterly book at 25-30 pages starting and then go from there based on how things grow.

As to content I feel we need to be somewhat careful. While I think any and all reasonable submissions should be accepted, there will be some that push the line. I can think of two guidelines we should look at: 1) Everything must be OGL compliant and 2) We should stay within some form of Good Taste. While the first is easily enforceable the second is too vague to be enforceable. We need to think about what should be considered acceptable and have a guideline set for content.

The big question I have seen is what type of material the book will take. My own thought is that new rules, classes, spells and monsters are always good. Also convention reports, reviews and so-called 'fluff material' is within the scope of the book. Adventures and fiction are also within the mark of the publication. Basically, standard fare for a gaming magazine. Along with this there should be some Society news. Upcoming conventions, additions to the rolls, contents and tournaments should be in the book along with articles.


That is my current thoughts on where to go with this. Of course any other thoughts should be voiced here as well as other ideas. I do have some long term ideas for the book but I want to get off the ground before seriously considering them.

For those that have not seen the original run of the Domesday Book you can find them here. I would suggest looking at them for an idea of where to start.

[alcyone]

On settings:

You've said its not to your taste, but I wonder if Aihrde is off-limits for fan material. I can think of a lot of reasons why it would be, especially before the new Codex is published, but I often wish for fan material for fleshing out the Blacktooth Ridge, major cities, etc. It's TLG, C&C oriented, too, and the Domesday Book I think is broader than that, but wondering what your thoughts are on it in any case.

A "Domesday Book Setting" as a fully specified setting is certainly too large to be in scope, but an organically grown setting rising from the content submitted might be neat.

[moriarty777]

Hey, I am in agreement with most of what you say but I have to disagree as far as page count is concerned. Call it a newsletter (as opposed to a periodical) and consider it as such. I would say 8-12 pages is plenty at first. If we get enough material over the months, maybe we can step up production to a newsletter every 2 months (and no more) with the same page count... If it continues and grows, we can add a couple more pages. Bottom line, anything extra that doesn't make it in the cut for a particular newsletter can be put into the following newsletter. Give it a chance to grow naturally.

This way, if we end up with just a very few working on this, some people won't burn out or drop out because they have no time. I think there was plenty of solid material in what was put out originally but we did have problems set in as early as the 2nd and 3rd issue because of a workload which was being done for free. A lower page count at first may help Domesday get a better foundation to build up from.

Besides, another benefit from this is that it wouldn't stifle other community efforts from running side by side with it (such as a contest or maybe a critter compilation -- you get the idea).

An editorial ... a review... news... and a focus on material of all sorts for C&C. We can do a very solid 12 page newsletter that we can be proud of. We wouldn't even have to rely on much art for it either (if any) which was one of the other problems initially. A lot of work was done doing work and layout for the original Domesday stuff. For me, layout is a synch and I enjoy doing it. At worst, we can use a couple (probably no more given the page count) of classy looking pieces that's either public domain or in some of the stuff I already have (and can use). One of the side benefits of doing some publishing I guess -- I collect resources.

I also think we should consider putting together a staff for some of these responsibilities (general editor / layout / submissions / etc).

Those are my immediate thoughts and opinions. Anyone else?

M

[MormonYoYoMan]

re: Julian's post... Wonder if even quarterly might be pushing it? Perhaps a bi-annual (twice a year) or even annual? I've edited a number of fanzines, worked on a few professional magazines, and am convinced that it always takes twice as long to finish an issue as you think it will. And that you have to start on the next one before you're finished with the current one!

As far as defining "good taste," I think we would want to ensure that we have the widest possible circulation. Topics themselves needn't be verboten, but crudity and unprofessionalism should be right out. I like to keep the "For the Strength of Youth" card in my pocket or wallet, and it pretty much sums up my feelings: "Use language that uplifts, encourages, and compliments others..Do not use profane, vulgar, or crude language or gestures." (reference: http://tinyurl.com/798e4zm )

These things should seem obvious, but often aren't.

[moriarty777]

On settings:

You've said its not to your taste, but I wonder if Aihrde is off-limits for fan material. I can think of a lot of reasons why it would be, especially before the new Codex is published, but I often wish for fan material for fleshing out the Blacktooth Ridge, major cities, etc. It's TLG, C&C oriented, too, and the Domesday Book I think is broader than that, but wondering what your thoughts are on it in any case.

A "Domesday Book Setting" as a fully specified setting is certainly too large to be in scope, but an organically grown setting rising from the content submitted might be neat.

Material should be setting neutral. While we have the permission to produce C&C fan material for the game, Aihrde and other published material for C&C of this nature are TLG's IP and that permission has not been granted. Of course, with the recent preorder / kickstarter where fans could contribute to the setting, well maybe all that is now changed.

Seriously -- probably best to leave it alone (for now). Aihrdre is Steve's baby after all.

M

[MormonYoYoMan]

Gosh, I planned to locate mine near Castle Greathonk!

[Julian Grimm]

Good points from everyone! I'll try to go down the line here for responses:

Aergraith, I have to agree with Pat on this one. I think setting neutral would be the way to go so we don't get into IP issues. However, a Society setting is a great idea. IIRC, there was something similar to that in the beginning of the Society and was tried again in the 'Domesday Era'. It is something worth looking at as a side project.


Pat, you're probably right. 8-12 would be a good beginning we could look at early newsletters for ideas on layout if we need to. If things pick up from there we can adjust as needed. I agree we probably better be thinking about staff. I think we need to make a call for volunteers and see who responds to it and go from there.

MormonYoYoMan, With 8-12 pages I think we could go quarterly but I would not be upset if we had to go with less in the beginning. What will give us an idea is the first few issues. The first couple will be the ones where we iron things out and get the process going. After that we can refine and tweak into a more efficient system. I don't think we will be really dialed in to the process until the fourth issue. Fluidity is what we need to have right now.

As far as content goes the one thing I want to avoid is the 'write like a mother is reading it'. I don't want to be Disney but I don't want to be F.A.T.A.L. either. I think you have a good philosophy on this.

[cuchulainkevin]

'write like a mother is reading it'.

I agree, mainly because that would kill my article entitled "the Boobs of Blacktooth Ridge"


Series, shouldn't the A Series npc's get some more facetime?

As far as the timeline for issues, that should be an organic thing. Something that can cause huge delays in fan materials is the tendancy of adding "just a little more". If we can get a booklet of 10-20 pages thats edited, formated and looks great out on a quarterly basis, cool. If not, get it out when you have those qualities attained. If that means twice a year, thrice a year, or 12 times a year, that's ok too.

[metalman42]

I love this idea - I'm a recent addition tot he crusade, but I've read the Domesday books I could download from Dragonsfoot. I love the idea of homebrew content I could download and maybe add to once I get my GMing feet.

[Julian Grimm]

You've said its not to your taste...

I have decided something. Due to the coolness of your avatar I am going to change my opinion....

Actually, I am going to reread the material and make a new judgement based off of it. Tastes and attitudes change and I will see what a new look at the material holds.

[serleran]

Domesday could be used as a release / marketing / tool for previews of official material to be released by the Trolls, at their discretion, perhaps as an addendum to Crusader work (if that starts up again.)

I do not offer my services for layout or editing or even "saying yes" to an article these days, as I simply have no time or desire to hold the reins as I once did, but I could probably throw a thing this way or that now and then. I do have some ideas I've just been letting dwell...

[Lurker]

Guys, I love the idea of bringing back Domesday. I was proud to submit articles for the first 3!

Unfortunately, with my new job, being a little under halfway finished with my Masters, and hopefully in the near future starting my dream home (that or finding a good bit of land with something other than a trailer house on it -like I'm living in now - in the area) I am tapped for time. Because of that there is no way I could submit something in the next year. Unless of course one of my classes has less than a paper a week due, but I'm not holding my breath on that ...

[Julian Grimm]

An advantage of smaller page count and minimal layout is being friendly to printers. If we went with the book being all Black & White and having a small layout then, you could print the Domesday Book for later use. I know I have a lot of material I have printed and placed in a binder for later use. This could be an advantage.

[DeadReborn]

I'm definitely up for contributing to this once I finish school. I had an article in Domesday #4 on Specialist Wizards, and while it wasn't anything ground breaking, it gave me a feeling of accomplishment. I've actually put some thought to expanding on that article a bit and adding some new ideas I've had on that subject.

[seskis281]

Hi all,

I'm not around as often as I'd like to be - but then that was the issue that limited my ability in the first place.

I do want to clear one thing up - the reason the Domesday book didn't continue past #4 was simple - those of us doing it couldn't keep doing it as it was. In my own case, I am now associate dean at my university and I am lucky to keep my home game going and aim to do a few things in the summer, which as Eric pointed out means, if I am going to carve some time for writing out, I have to be selective now on my energies. Eric had similar circumstances, and others from Dachda to Todd and others also saw real life intervene. Pat was in the process of turning his energies to Arcana. It's just really hard to maintain this sort of endeavor on a volunteer basis, especially if you want to maintain quality. One of the things I tried to suggest at the time was to shift to the 8-12 page newsletter format - and I got slammed for that suggestion. I am glad that idea is back on the table as it is perhaps more logistically manageable than what we were doing.

My personal feeling is that it's great if people want to try and make a go of it and use the Domesday name - I certainly have no proprietary claim or control over that. Indeed, after I had to back away I did twice offer to Pat to just take it - at the time he indicated he was mainly focuesed on Arcana, but would've taken our previous editions and the unpublished 5th issue material and would do a compilation issue. Unfortunately, the nature of the course of things meant the original stuff that went into issues 1 and 2 had disappeared in a computer changeover/meltdown, so those issues only exist in the pdfs we have in the end. The 5th issue material we had collected was only about 50% of the amount we had had for 3 and 4, and in going back and forth with Eric's and my lives at the time most of this was unfortunately lost, so I had to tell Pat that. I assume that's what he means but not getting the opportunity to see what he could do with the Domesday book.

If people want to try and resurrect it they have my full blessings - I will try to contribute the best I can with a piece here and there as time allows. Eric has done incredible work using the new ning site to connect the Society in a different way, even though I myself have lagged in being able to stay current there. If Josh and Pat want to take the reigns on this I give my absolute best for success in the endeavor!

John

[Go0gleplex]

Be nice to see this come back. Like John said, real life sucks for some of us time-wise. I'd be willing to contribute stuff as I might however if this comes to fruition.

[Julian Grimm]

What we seem to have now is this:

* Semi-annual or Quarterly publication

* Page count of about 8-12 pages. This can be changed depending on contributions

That seems agreed upon and I say we are on the right track with this. As for content, with the smaller page count I think the focus needs to remain on C&C. I know in the past the book had articles about other games but with getting started back up I think we need a more narrow focus at least at the start.

With that I think we need a more serious look at staffing. Thanks to having the time I can take a position on the book much easier than some can. I think we can pull this off with a staff of about 3-5 people working together. If you want a staff position say so here so we can judge how many volunteers we have.

[MormonYoYoMan]

I can offer some editing and proofreading skills, but someone would have to repearedly thrash me to make deadlines.

[moriarty777]

Indeed, after I had to back away I did twice offer to Pat to just take it - at the time he indicated he was mainly focuesed on Arcana, but would've taken our previous editions and the unpublished 5th issue material and would do a compilation issue. Unfortunately, the nature of the course of things meant the original stuff that went into issues 1 and 2 had disappeared in a computer changeover/meltdown, so those issues only exist in the pdfs we have in the end. The 5th issue material we had collected was only about 50% of the amount we had had for 3 and 4, and in going back and forth with Eric's and my lives at the time most of this was unfortunately lost, so I had to tell Pat that. I assume that's what he means but not getting the opportunity to see what he could do with the Domesday book.

Hi John,

No worries and yes, in the end, the 'lack of opportunity' was tied to not having any of the materials to carry on or finish the job. People who were not involved at the time need to realize all of this didn't happen over night or a period of a couple of days but a few months before John gave me confirmation that this material was effectively lost. We all had quite a few things happening in our lives then. For me, with only the original four PDFs to draw from and nothing from issue 5, there seemed little point to do the compilation anymore since issues 1-4 continues to be available.

In John's defense, he did advocate for a smaller page count but I think some people were more preoccupied with other things they wanted for the Society.

But that was then, and the past is the past. I want to move this forward -- Thanks for the thumbs up John!

M

[cuchulainkevin]

I'm willing to help with editing and art.

[cuchulainkevin]

One project I think would be worty to undertake would be to compile a list of the various errata threads for TL products for hosting on the C&CS site. That and researching the old site for some of the various articles that were posted, i.e. monster conversions free modules and such.

[Relaxo]

I will gladly help with proofing and can add some (bad) art if needed. Like, I would be plan D as an artist.
But for proofing and editing, I'd be glad to help, and I dare say I am good at it.

Content I can try also.

[Frost]

I'd like to chip in a monster or two.

[Julian Grimm]

One project I think would be worty to undertake would be to compile a list of the various errata threads for TL products for hosting on the C&CS site. That and researching the old site for some of the various articles that were posted, i.e. monster conversions free modules and such.

One of my long-term goals is to have a downloads page set up for material such as this. I would like to collect the material that is currently on DF and other material that has been 'lost' and have it hosted in a location that is closer to the C&CS. This will also serve as a place to host fan projects as they come about. Things like the Creature Feature and the Ghastly Villa have become harder and harder to find and I would love to see them in an easier location. The only place I can find the first four Domesday Books is on DF and I think they need to be available through the C&CS.

I don't know if this is possible to do with the current Society website or if TLG could do this. If anyone wants to take this up feel free to do so.

[Julian Grimm]

Ok, If I am reading this right here is who we have interested for staff:

cuchulainkevin

Relaxo

MormonYoYoMan

Moriarty

Me

I also got a PM from someone expressing interest as well ( I don't want to name him as I was not given permission to do so). That makes 6 people interested. If you guys are all wanting in I have no problem with this group. Next I think we need to look at who is going to do what then make the submission call. While we are waiting on contributions the staff can hammer out the layout and a few other details. If we can get the submission call out this week I would shoot for a June or July release of Domesday 5.

[Peter]

The PM guy would be me. I am bored with working on projects by myself. I'd be interested in being in this group.

I can do layout, editing, proofreading, etc. I am also looking to submit some material.

An idea I'd like to propose is allowing regular submitters there own titled section. Like Mike Stewart's "Auld Wyrmish" in the Crusader magazine.

[Julian Grimm]

Just a quick rundown to make sure everything is in order as far as staff goes:

Peter: Layout, Editing, Proofreading

Relaxo: Proofreading, Editing, Art

MormonYoYoMan: Editing, Proofreading

cuchulainkevin: Editing, Art

Moriarty777: Layout

Me: I don't know I am making this up as I go along...


So now my questions: Have I missed anyone or anything? Should we split into 'departments' like Art, Layout, and Edit/Proofing? Where do you think I should be in this mess? I don't want to give myself just any position and would like your input on this.

[Peter]

Julian: Coordinator, Quality Control, Proofreading (can never have enough of these )

[moriarty777]

Here's my recommendations for what they are worth.

(1) Managing Editor: This position shall shift from person to person on the staff. Each newsletter will be have a different Managing Editor. Key responsibilities will be to take the lead on the newsletter and also write an editorial for that issue. They will also work in tandem with submissions if need be. Final say on issue.

(1) Submissions / Proofreader: This position can be fixed or shift from person to person as well. This is to help with quality control and will pass on articles to be 'published' for the upcoming newsletter or put aside. Responsibilities also include proofreading in final stages.

(2) Editors: Each edits and proofs one-half of regular articles before sending to layout.

(1) Layout: Takes the articles and possible art (if we go that direction) and lays out the newsletter and sends it to proofreaders. Minor editing as required.

(1) Proofreader: Reads through newsletter and notifies Layout of any missed errors. Once 'clean', is passed on to Managing Editor for final approval.

This represents a 'staff' of six (numbers for each position being in parentheses). Since Julian was instrumental in getting the ball rolling on this, I nominate him as our first Managing Editor. I suggest the position to rotate in order to alleviate the load of the position. For that matter, all the other positions could just as easily be something we all rotate on. I requested the position of layout simply because I have all the tools to do it quickly and painlessly enough but I know that Peter (for instance) would be up to the task judging by his past offerings (the stuff he's put together is really very good). Editing is something I have done a lot of in the past but I find to be too time consuming given the other commercial projects I am currently in the midst of producing but I'd be willing to proof.

Additionally, I have been meaning to completely redesign the Arcana Creations website, and I would be willing to create another site off of that domain to host all the stuff that Josh (Julian) mentioned. It's something I pay for anyway but I really don't use that much space on it and the additional bandwidth wouldn't cause any problems. If no one objects, I can make that happen sometime in the next couple of weeks and set it up around the same time I do the redesign and update for my own site.

M

[MormonYoYoMan]

Wow! Go, Speed Organizer, GO!

Where's the "Like" button?