Anything lacking?

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CnD
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Anything lacking?

Post by CnD »

So, after a long time of my gaming pendulum swing back and forth, I've finally taken the step and acquired a copy of C&C 4P and M&T 3P, courtesy of the flip book.

What I've seen so far is really cool, the artwork especially. I haven't made a lot of headway in an in-depth read, but what I have seen seems pretty complete.

What I'd like to know from the C&C vets, is, if after the new printing, are there any areas, mechanics, or info that feel lacking or incomplete in any way, something that is either opted to come out in the CKG or house rules to fill any gaps?
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Post by serleran »

That is an impossible question as everyone will have things they wanted but was not included, like critical hits, a more detailed "skill system" or even rules for making monsters. So, yes... there are things "left out" but how critical those are depends more on you than the game.
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Post by Go0gleplex »

If you plan on playing the game straight from the book, then no...it is pretty complete and not really lacking.

BUT...part of the charm is being able to adopt house rules easily and to customize to taste. The CKG has a lot of optional information and such, with the expanded class levels being the only real thing to the best of my knowledge that might be considered essential...but not until your players pass 12th or 13th level.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

I'd like to see epic level stuff come out. It will be in the CKG so I'm a happy camper.
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Post by Shenron »

True that.
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Post by zarathustra »

serleran wrote:
That is an impossible question as everyone will have things they wanted but was not included, like critical hits, a more detailed "skill system" or even rules for making monsters. So, yes... there are things "left out" but how critical those are depends more on you than the game.

some of those things (the 'lack' of a skill system) are even features which drew me (and perhaps others) to the game. I liked the ease amd quickness of a PC's background simply deciding what skills he has and the CK just coming up with a check if needed/asked. I'm hoping players will be less "limited" by what is on the sheet by this method.

Its just a simple, commonsense approach (C&C thru n thru).

A farmboy from RiverVillage probably knows about dealing with animals, ropes, fishing, basic hunting skills, and a little bit about a wide range of fix it/make it practical things (carpentry etc).

A street urchin from BigCity is gonna be streetwise, has probably seen/recognise people from a wide range of cultures, knows the value of things down to the penny, can sniff you out a fence or mercenary in just about any town, maybe he learnt to sing for his supper.

I can just assume clerics know religion (fair and foul) and demonology, a little spellcraft, reading, some history and has a few church connections.

Your wild elf archer probably knows how to make his own arrow shafts etc etc etc

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Post by serleran »

I agree. That is how I run "background knowledge." Base it off race, class, region and age. Some things know a lot more than others because they experienced a whole lot more. In my games, for example, elves are not the ones who know a bunch about magic... dwarfs are (which is why they don't use it any more.)
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

+1 to the idea of background determining "knowledge" and abilities. My players get pretty wrapped up in determining character backstories. That's a lot more fun, IMHO, than trying to min/max skills & feats.

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Post by hedgeknight »

zarathustra wrote:
some of those things (the 'lack' of a skill system) are even features which drew me (and perhaps others) to the game. I liked the ease amd quickness of a PC's background simply deciding what skills he has and the CK just coming up with a check if needed/asked. I'm hoping players will be less "limited" by what is on the sheet by this method.

Its just a simple, commonsense approach (C&C thru n thru).

A farmboy from RiverVillage probably knows about dealing with animals, ropes, fishing, basic hunting skills, and a little bit about a wide range of fix it/make it practical things (carpentry etc).

A street urchin from BigCity is gonna be streetwise, has probably seen/recognise people from a wide range of cultures, knows the value of things down to the penny, can sniff you out a fence or mercenary in just about any town, maybe he learnt to sing for his supper.

I can just assume clerics know religion (fair and foul) and demonology, a little spellcraft, reading, some history and has a few church connections.

Your wild elf archer probably knows how to make his own arrow shafts etc etc etc

Absolutely agreement with zarathustra - I love NOT having all of those skills and feats charts. I want my players to use their minds, not keep their noses in the books looking up stats, modifiers, tables, etc. Just use a little common sense and let 'er rip!
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Post by zarathustra »

I never changed over to editions of DnD which featured feats and whatnot, just didn't like them.

I started with the box sets and 1e, got as far as 2e but dug my heels in there. These days I found myself more n more annoyed with the slightly nonsensical proficiency system in it, as well as all the houserules I needed in other departments. Found C&C and bingo, it had everything I wanted, basically a streamlined 1e with better mechanics.

OP, as for anything else "lacking" (back on topic, back on topic) as Serleran says it really depends on what you demand from a game and your attitude to running one. You could say "oh there's no long distance overland travel rules" or "hey, no wild mage" and be correct, but if you really felt your game needed such things, you can just bring 'em in.

The modular and simple nature of the system means that if you have any favourite ideas, rules or mechanics from other DnD editions or similar games you can just port 'em over. I notice people from later edition dnd backgrounds remarking how similar and easy d20/3e type stuff is to port over.

Whilst other old grognards like me are struck by the fact I can convert 1/2e and perhaps even 0e products in game "on the fly", even with quite little experience with C&C.

Or as the flavour of C&C suggests, make up your own stuff (although not everyone has time for the work). Given the "rulings not rules" nature of C&C I have not yet noticed anything lacking that bothered me. I do not know whether that style of system is to everyones taste though.

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Post by DeadReborn »

So being the 4th printing is pretty complete, is it safe to say this printing will be around for a while?
Quote:
My players get pretty wrapped up in determining character backstories. That's a lot more fun, IMHO, than trying to min/max skills & feats.

For me, this is one of the best parts of RPing. Backgrounds are part of what make characters of the same class unique and without them, a character is nothing more than a sheet of paper with numbers on it in my opinion.
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Post by seskis281 »

As others have said, pretty much the areas that are left non-specified are done so for a reason, to leave maximum flexibility to individual GMs to customize such things as critical rules etc.

My own feeling is all you need really for C&C through level 12/13 is what you have - the flipbook is the essentials for the game.

Now, the one thing I find lacking for long-term campaigning in the PHB is expansion of classes beyond level 12 - the XP and HP are fine just following the template as given, the BtH is easily deciphered for each, but classes essentially stay the same thereafter (class skills, bonuses, as denoted and awarded at the various levels for each class levels 1-12).

Now, these are to be in the CKG (soon, soon.... soon), along with lots of other stuff, including multiple variations and alternative rules. If you're just starting, you probably (knock on wood) won't need to deal with those levels for awhile, by which time the BTB TLG concepts for these expanded levels will be out and available.

Till now, most of us house rule our own movement past if we happen to go into these upper levels - I have done some expansion just for my current group, which is more highly powered (closer to 3.0) for attacks because of the flavor of this particular gaming group and campaign.

Some of those are at:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
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Post by Lurker »

Quote:
BUT...part of the charm is being able to adopt house rules easily and to customize to taste
Quote:
My players get pretty wrapped up in determining character backstories.

+1 on both of those!
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Post by anglefish »

After the 4th addition added "Class and half" rules, I'm completely happy with the core books.

Sure I have a binder full of house rules for my Clockwork and Pirates campaign, but that's to be expected.

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Re: Anything lacking?

Post by Rhuvein »

CnD wrote:
So, after a long time of my gaming pendulum swing back and forth, I've finally taken the step and acquired a copy of C&C 4P and M&T 3P, courtesy of the flip book.

What I've seen so far is really cool, the artwork especially. I haven't made a lot of headway in an in-depth read, but what I have seen seems pretty complete.

What I'd like to know from the C&C vets, is, if after the new printing, are there any areas, mechanics, or info that feel lacking or incomplete in any way, something that is either opted to come out in the CKG or house rules to fill any gaps?

Cloak and Dagger??

Excellent, man. Enjoy.

I'm still running my game off the Boxed set ruleset with a later joining player using the full PH rules. So far so great.

Best,

Rhu.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

I feel the books are pretty complete as-is. One swhould be able to run a game perfectly fine from the core books and feel nothing is lacking. But I think a lot of that is where you've been, what systems you've played, and what you feel is "complete" and what isn't. Even though I've been with 3.5 D&D for 10 years, I feel C&C is a complete game that's not missing anything.
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Re: Anything lacking?

Post by CnD »

Rhuvein wrote:
Cloak and Dagger??

Yeah, verily tis I.
Just trying to cut off any grey areas that may have already cropped up with CKs currently running. But it appears most everyone hasn't had any, except the higher level play, but I'm not worried with that since I plan on running a slow meandering campaign and not pushing XPs for levels.

Feats are definitely not something I'm looking at and skills, if I use them, are more background oriented for the characters. I actually read a really good reply to a post on the Hrn/Lythia forum about skills and play within the game that I think applies to the philosophy behind C&C and older editions of (A)D&D too:
Quote:
But one thing I have learned, is that rolling dice, to roll more dice, doesn't help to speed up the game. If a character, under no real stress or danger will eventually climb a wall, then tell him after a few minutes he clamors over the wall. Cooking a meal, under no stress, shouldn't matter, the meal is cooked. I have on several occasions gotten caught up in the minuscule, and come to realize that what suffers is the pacing of the game; games slow to a crawl as the pace of minute by minute, watch by watch, and even day by day is played out; compounded by the rolling of skill after skill, to see if a camp is set up, a fire is made, and food is cooked. All of this rolling does nothing to add the game - only to slow it.

I think that describes skill use pretty well and something that C&C caters to.
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Post by Troll Lord »

DeadReborn wrote:
So being the 4th printing is pretty complete, is it safe to say this printing will be around for a while?

That is hard to say. We are moving through it fairly fast; it has however slowed since we gave people the option to buy the perfect bound version or the flip as people have opted into different versions. I would guess a 5th printing for early next year however. But there will be no more changes other than grammar/spelling, etc.

Steve
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Troll Lord wrote:
That is hard to say. We are moving through it fairly fast; it has however slowed since we gave people the option to buy the perfect bound version or the flip as people have opted into different versions. I would guess a 5th printing for early next year however. But there will be no more changes other than grammar/spelling, etc.

Steve

So much for getting those illusionists healing spells removed.

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Post by Arazmus »

hedgeknight wrote:
Absolutely agreement with zarathustra - I love NOT having all of those skills and feats charts. I want my players to use their minds, not keep their noses in the books looking up stats, modifiers, tables, etc. Just use a little common sense and let 'er rip!

Hear hear.
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