A world of unlimited magic... for every class!

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Omote
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A world of unlimited magic... for every class!

Post by Omote »

Let's say that there is a highly magical world (setting), where almost any PC has the natural ability to learn, at the very least, minor spellcasting. This spell casting would not detract from the class of the PC, say a fighter, because the ability to cast minor magic is an inherent racial ability. However, this innate spellcasting ability can possibly become more powerful over time.

I was thinking Class-and-a-Half, but these PCs would never have all of the abilities of a wizard, even at higer levels.

In v3.5 there were feats that one could take to represent limited magical ability. Using C&C, how can gaining a few spells here and there be simulated without using feats and without impacting the base class of the PC?

What types of rules have you seen or can think of that can be used in a situation like this?

~O
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Post by serleran »

Simply give every race a spell progression chart, where, regardless of class, at X XP total, they gain spells.

For example:
Elf

XP Gained -- 0; 1st; 2nd; 3rd; 4th; 5th; 6th; 7th; 8th; 9th

0 -- 2; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

2250 -- 3; 1; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

5000 -- 4; 2; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

10000 -- 4; 2; 1; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

20000 -- 4; 3; 1; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

40000 -- 4; 3; 2; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

100000 -- 4; 4; 2; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

200000 -- 4; 4; 3; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

500000 -- 4; 4; 4; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0

Or whatever.
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Post by Omote »

Yeah, that is an easy way to go about it. But what about varying levels of proficiency in the craft of magic? For example, every 5th level fighter is as proficient in fighting as each one should be. But since lower-level magic is available to everyone, how can I simulate these 5th level fighters where one might be better than another, yet remain the same 5th level fighter?

In this scenario, only Mages/Wizards can master magic 3rd level or above, but anybody who devotes some sort of mechanical aspect to study can learn 0-2 level magic spells?

It seems what I'm looking for is some independant from standard level advancement. But how to incorporate this into C&C is giving me fits.

~O
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Post by Rikitiki »

Omote, interesting idea...my head bopped onto this:

As CK, keep an adventure-log of your player-characters (I did this as a DM when I ran AD&D way back when) - in that, note significant and/or interesting incidents that characters come up against/persue in the course of adventuring.

Then, it's a matter of 'winging it' using your game-mastering experience to say, do the following:

Haktar (4th-lvl Dwarf FGT), having many-times been subject to the spell "Feather Fall" and recognizing its usefulness, can, if he spends some tutor-me monies and some time, actually do that spell.

Of course, each character you'd adjudicate according to their backgrounds, etc, but it'd give you that individual-.vs-all-the-same thing you're looking for.

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Post by serleran »

Omote wrote:
This spell casting would not detract from the class of the PC, say a fighter, because the ability to cast minor magic is an inherent racial ability.

If race is why they are casting, then being a fighter is irrelevant. Now, there could be two elf fighters, both with the same XP, who function identically, and that seems to be where you want the disparity... some method of determining whether Pointy-Ear 1 is better than Point Ear 2, despite being identical in every other way. And, that answer is somewhat simple... look at an existing mechanic: Dragon Magic. At some XP amount (such as presented before), earns the right to check for gaining magical knowledge -- roll an Intelligence/whatever check and succeed and get; fail and do not.

Or, you could have it be a "race-and-a-half" where the racial ability (as described above) means that the class XP requirements are increased as per those rules, but no additional benefits are gained.
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Post by Omote »

@ Rikitiki: Yessir! Normally I would do just such a thing. However the players that I usually play with are very interested in mechanical effect, and at most times I need to develop mechanics for such things for the players to study and contemplate. It's just the way of the world for those I often play with.

@ Serleren: Not a bad idea. Simple, perhaps as simpel as a siege check to determine of the PC learned how to harness the magic. Using this method the PC can try to learn to cast one of these spells at a particular XP total. They roll the die, and if they succeed they can cast the spell. If they fail, I guess they can wait until the next level of XP requirement. However, balance is somewhat of an issue here. If a PC fails the roll, can the "slot" be used somewhere else in the game so that the player doesn't feel slighted by a bad dice roll? Hmm.

Much more to cometemplate.

~O
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
If a PC fails the roll, can the "slot" be used somewhere else in the game so that the player doesn't feel slighted by a bad dice roll?

If players feel cheated because of a poor die roll or some player is continually lucky and succeeds all the time, a measure of balance could be unchecked... but, this truly depends on what spells are being allowed, when, and how often. I would probably allow the "slot" to apply to something else, perhaps a +1 to a class-based attribute check (such as a +1 pick pockets) or a +2 HP or something relatively minor, but still usable-- perhaps based on the class of the individual. In this way, in fact, you could also just have them select whether they wanted the spell, or the "freebie" with no roll at all, giving them more customization. This would result in a very adjunct-like system.
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Post by Rikitiki »

Omote...all this discussion gave me a new twist-idea on this --

Yes, set up some XP-level = roll-for-a-spell chart,

AND - as characters adventure and things happen in the adventure, have those incidents give the character plusses to their roll when they get to that roll-to-see-if-you-get-the-spell XP-level.

This would mean that Farnik, who has encountered some spell 3 times would perhaps have a +3 toward learning that spell when the time came, whereas Didbrat, who only encountered that spell 1 time, would get a +1 when he could choose to learn it.

Yes, some might FAIL their 'learn-a-spell' SEIGE check roll, but would mostly succeed if they picked one they had the most plusses towards. I mean, ya can't give 'em everything easy...

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Post by Traveller »

There is at least one world where this exists: Thimhallan, aka the world of the Darksword Series. Almost everyone can cast magic, except those who are Dead. The Dead have no magical ability.

Were I to emulate Thimhallan, I would use the magic system in my house rules with three changes: all classes would earn spellcasting ability (obviously), the spells per day tables for Wizards would be used for all classes, and the classes that normally cannot cast spells in a standard world must select which type of magic (arcane, illusionist, divine) they want to cast. My house rules utilize a mana-based magic system which eliminates the need to memorize spells, but limits the number of spells by using the aforementioned Wizards spell table for spell slots. I would also add a percentage chance of the character being Dead, in which case they are limited to any of the classes that cannot cast spells.

Omote, take a gander at my house rules for more detail and see if something like this would work for you.
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Post by Breakdaddy »

You could also create a chart of XP that will need to be SPENT by the PC in order to improve their magic. They would permanently shift that amount of XP to their spell power away from their actual class. They would only spend what they wanted to. There would be fighters that are higher level, but that lack the magical powers that the lower level fighter gleaned.
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Post by LordSeurek »

Breakdaddy wrote:
You could also create a chart of XP that will need to be SPENT by the PC in order to improve their magic. They would permanently shift that amount of XP to their spell power away from their actual class. They would only spend what they wanted to. There would be fighters that are higher level, but that lack the magical powers that the lower level fighter gleaned.

Now this idea, I like! I may think of doing something similar in a future game I run. Too deep and too high a level right now to bring in something like this. Cool concept though.
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Re: A world of unlimited magic... for every class!

Post by Zebulon »

Omote wrote:
What types of rules have you seen or can think of that can be used in a situation like this?

In 3e unearthed arcana, there was a concept of "incantations", where anyone could possibly cast a spell without need for spell slots, feats or whatever. In some game I forgot, there are rituals that take 10 minutes to cast. So, taking inspiration from there I would do this:

1) Anyone can cast 0 and 1st level spells. All it requires is to be faithfully devout and have wisdom = 11+, if a divine spell is considered; or be learned and have intelligence = 11+, if an arcane spell is considered.

2) Casting the spell requires to know the spell formula or the prayer. Such spells may not be prepared beforehand in the same way spellcasting classes do. A character must read his spellbook/prayerbook and do the appropriate gestures undisturbed, and all of this will take 2d4+2 minutes (spellcasters cast in less than a round because the spell were prepared earlier). Then, make a siege check (intelligence or wisdom as relevant): if success the spell is cast, if failed spell is wasted (including the costly material components*). After that, whether spell was failed or not, make a Constitution siege check: if failed the character loses 1d4 hp.

3) There is no limit to the number of times a spell can be cast, but required conditions, casting times, and components* will impose their own limits. Also, when divine spells are considered, since they are lend by the gods, there will probably be a limit where a god won't tolerate abuse.

(*: enforce use of material components for such spells, or add the use of alchemical compounds that are costly to get.)
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Re: A world of unlimited magic... for every class!

Post by Arazmus »

Omote wrote:
Let's say that there is a highly magical world (setting), where almost any PC has the natural ability to learn, at the very least, minor spellcasting. This spell casting would not detract from the class of the PC, say a fighter, because the ability to cast minor magic is an inherent racial ability. However, this innate spellcasting ability can possibly become more powerful over time.

I was thinking Class-and-a-Half, but these PCs would never have all of the abilities of a wizard, even at higer levels.

In v3.5 there were feats that one could take to represent limited magical ability. Using C&C, how can gaining a few spells here and there be simulated without using feats and without impacting the base class of the PC?

What types of rules have you seen or can think of that can be used in a situation like this?

~O

Isn't what you just described 4th edition?

Another way to do it would be to look at the old Red Steel setting from 2nd ed, or even Birthright.
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Post by Omote »

Don't know 4th Edition Araz, so I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm certainly not trying to mimic that game. The idea is that low magic (not necessarily magic items) are fairly commonplace in the setting. As Traveller pointed out, think the Darksword series or the Sword of Truth series.

Since C&C is a level based system, it's fairly hard to generate new mechanics that work outside of level dependancy, while still being balanced and not having every PC's magical apptitude being exactly the same. There are certainly some great ideas floating around this thread, and for that gentlemen, I thank you. Still working in the situation though.

The other issue for this scenario that is plaguing me is a newely created first level PC. Some of these PCs will have limited spell casting ability (say a few 0-level spells) and others will not. The rest of the C&C classes, races, etc., need to stay basically as they are in the PHB. So how do I do this upon character creation? How do I balance this aspect into character creation?

~O
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Post by Breakdaddy »

Omote wrote:
Don't know 4th Edition Araz, so I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm certainly not trying to mimic that game. The idea is that low magic (not necessarily magic items) are fairly commonplace in the setting. As Traveller pointed out, think the Darksword series or the Sword of Truth series.

Since C&C is a level based system, it's fairly hard to generate new mechanics that work outside of level dependancy, while still being balanced and not having every PC's magical apptitude being exactly the same. There are certainly some great ideas floating around this thread, and for that gentlemen, I thank you. Still working in the situation though.

The other issue for this scenario that is plaguing me is a newely created first level PC. Some of these PCs will have limited spell casting ability (say a few 0-level spells) and others will not. The rest of the C&C classes, races, etc., need to stay basically as they are in the PHB. So how do I do this upon character creation? How do I balance this aspect into character creation?

~O

On character creation it might be best to have a random table such as:

Initial Spell Availability

Roll 1d100 and consult the following table:

1-50 No Talent

51-75 1 Spell of 0 Level

76-90 2 Spells of 0 Level

91-00 3 Spells of 0 Level

Change the numbers around to suit your desired availability
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Post by commanderFuron »

Fate Points

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Post by serleran »

I would go with something like Breakdaddy's randomizer for character creation, but being the table fool I am, would break it down into race and region, and possibly allow a character to modify their roll by +/- if they gave me some Dr. Pepper.
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Post by Arazmus »

serleran wrote:
I would go with something like Breakdaddy's randomizer for character creation, but being the table fool I am, would break it down into race and region, and possibly allow a character to modify their roll by +/- if they gave me some Dr. Pepper.

you could have worked for ICE back in the day.
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