Wall of Ice
Wall of Ice
Crossposted from DF:
What happens to a Wall of Ice after the duration expires. Does it simply cease to exist, or does it crumble, leaving the ice, but allowing passage? If it were kept cold enough, do you think that the ice from a wall of ice could be kept intact beyond the 1 turn/level duration?
Basically, I have an enterprising mage who wants to use Wall of Ice in his Ice House business. He casts the spell a few times in the morning, his workers cut up the walls into blocks and these blocks are delivered to his customers in town who need it (butchers, grocers, etc).
What happens to a Wall of Ice after the duration expires. Does it simply cease to exist, or does it crumble, leaving the ice, but allowing passage? If it were kept cold enough, do you think that the ice from a wall of ice could be kept intact beyond the 1 turn/level duration?
Basically, I have an enterprising mage who wants to use Wall of Ice in his Ice House business. He casts the spell a few times in the morning, his workers cut up the walls into blocks and these blocks are delivered to his customers in town who need it (butchers, grocers, etc).
hmmmm..living in the arctic
Veritas,
I would say the only thing that would really do that is more of an arctic climate for the game.
The volume of ice that that spell creates would only be sustainable in the deep winters of the north, or above the arctic circle.
That is, of course, if your CK lets it last in the first place.
I would say the only thing that would really do that is more of an arctic climate for the game.
The volume of ice that that spell creates would only be sustainable in the deep winters of the north, or above the arctic circle.
That is, of course, if your CK lets it last in the first place.
I'd say the Wall of Ice disappears when the duration is up (i.e. that's what the duration means -- it only lasts that long). If the Wall of Ice just lasted until it naturally melted or was destroyed, I'd expect the duration to be listed as "n/a."
See Web for a counter-example: it's duration is "n/a," which I took to mean that the webs are created and last until their burned or otherwise destroyed. A similar example is Animate Dead (also duration "n/a"): the undead is created and remains until it is destroyed.
See Web for a counter-example: it's duration is "n/a," which I took to mean that the webs are created and last until their burned or otherwise destroyed. A similar example is Animate Dead (also duration "n/a"): the undead is created and remains until it is destroyed.
Well, okay, I'm fully aware of what the duration means (I've been playing AD&D for 23 years)...
What I'm asking is... does the ice just go "poof" and vanish into thin air, or does the magic holding together the structure of the wall dissipate and the wall crumbles into a pile of ice, thus ending the "wall" effect? So, would there still be ice left behind if you kept it cold enough not to melt, but just not in a wall form?
With a wall of fire or wall of force, you're not calling into being a truly physical object, so seeing those just vanish is fine to me, but a wall of ice seems more akin to wall of stone or iron... just that the material isn't as resilient (thus once the magic was gone, it wouldn't hold up under its own weight).
What I'm asking is... does the ice just go "poof" and vanish into thin air, or does the magic holding together the structure of the wall dissipate and the wall crumbles into a pile of ice, thus ending the "wall" effect? So, would there still be ice left behind if you kept it cold enough not to melt, but just not in a wall form?
With a wall of fire or wall of force, you're not calling into being a truly physical object, so seeing those just vanish is fine to me, but a wall of ice seems more akin to wall of stone or iron... just that the material isn't as resilient (thus once the magic was gone, it wouldn't hold up under its own weight).
Veritas wrote:
Well, okay, I'm fully aware of what the duration means (I've been playing AD&D for 23 years)...
I guess that came across wrong -- I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what duration meant.
Quote:
What I'm asking is... does the ice just go "poof" and vanish into thin air, or does the magic holding together the structure of the wall dissipate and the wall crumbles into a pile of ice, thus ending the "wall" effect? So, would there still be ice left behind if you kept it cold enough not to melt, but just not in a wall form?
I'd say it goes "poof."
Quote:
With a wall of fire or wall of force, you're not calling into being a truly physical object, so seeing those just vanish is fine to me, but a wall of ice seems more akin to wall of stone or iron... just that the material isn't as resilient (thus once the magic was gone, it wouldn't hold up under its own weight).
I see what you're saying. What about a Wall of Thorns, though? Unlike stone or iron (which are permanent), the duration for that one is finite (i.e. 10 min/level), similar to Wall of Ice. With a finite duration, I'd say the spell effects go "poof" when the duration ends. With a "n/a" duration, I'd say they stay until naturally destroyed/changed (e.g. Warp Wood, Web, Animate Dead, etc). Permanent is clear (although there is some overlap with "n/a", IMO).
That said, if you like the idea of the Wall of Ice crumbling to little pieces at the end of the duration, thereby ending the wall effect, I don't see a big problem with it. You could just rule it that way, or make it a variant Wall of Ice spell.
From your post at Dragonsfoot, I see you're needing an "official word" on the matter. My word obviously isn't. Let us know if you get an official clarification on the matter (who knows, maybe one of the Trolls will weigh in, here).
- DangerDwarf
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Officially it goes poof. Otherwise the spell description would say something about it, like it does if hit with fire. Anything else would just be a CK's "flavor".
Maybe the Trolls will let it go in your module if you do it as a sidebar recommendation to have the CK do it the way your suggesting.
Otherwise they will need to do ice making in some other creative way. Such as the evaporative cooling buckets used in Africa. Which is a metal interior bucket and an insulated outer bucket (usually wood) with sand between the two. Pour water into the sand and the evaporative cooling keeps their goats milk chilled/good all day.
Maybe the Trolls will let it go in your module if you do it as a sidebar recommendation to have the CK do it the way your suggesting.
Otherwise they will need to do ice making in some other creative way. Such as the evaporative cooling buckets used in Africa. Which is a metal interior bucket and an insulated outer bucket (usually wood) with sand between the two. Pour water into the sand and the evaporative cooling keeps their goats milk chilled/good all day.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Veritas wrote:
What I'm asking is... does the ice just go "poof" and vanish into thin air, or does the magic holding together the structure of the wall dissipate and the wall crumbles into a pile of ice, thus ending the "wall" effect? So, would there still be ice left behind if you kept it cold enough not to melt, but just not in a wall form?
This would be my interpretation. Poof! Magic creates and magic takes away - instantaneously. The ice/water/pool thing seems to suggest a physical building/melting of the ice wall, which is not the case. But I'd be fine with that way of narrating if you/the CK thinks it will work better.
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Well, this was something I wanted to insert into my Yggsburgh module, so it'd likely have to conform to the official, thus with the "poof". The Sidebar idea is okay, perhaps, but I can see it just getting edited back to the official.
Oh well, it was a cool idea (pardon the pun), but I'll have to come up with something else. Thanks.
Oh well, it was a cool idea (pardon the pun), but I'll have to come up with something else. Thanks.
There is another way for you to use your idea. A spell specifically researched for them to run this "ice" business. Probably lower level than Ice Wall, like 3rd.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
- moriarty777
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Here's a possible solution:
After the Wall of Ice is cast, just cast Permancy upon it.
I mean... wouldn't that work? I don't see why it can't and it mentions other similar spells cast upon an area that can be used in this way.
What do you think?
But if you 'cut' it up, would the ice stay frozen? Of course the permancy spell is kinda steep in terms of level and effects...
Hmm... maybe that wasn't helpful at all.
This just popped into my head at around 4:15am so feel free to disregard if I don't make sense or if this doesn't help you at all.
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After the Wall of Ice is cast, just cast Permancy upon it.
I mean... wouldn't that work? I don't see why it can't and it mentions other similar spells cast upon an area that can be used in this way.
What do you think?
But if you 'cut' it up, would the ice stay frozen? Of course the permancy spell is kinda steep in terms of level and effects...
Hmm... maybe that wasn't helpful at all.
This just popped into my head at around 4:15am so feel free to disregard if I don't make sense or if this doesn't help you at all.
Moriarty the Red
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I had considered it for a moment until I re-read the spell description. With the 1 Con point penalty for a 1 month for each casting, Permanency would, unfortunatley, kill the man in the course of a month.
However, I've come up with a new spell. A failure in his personal spell research into Cone of Cold came up with a touch spell of limited, but ultimately more profitable, use to him.
Here's the preliminary stats on it... anyone have any comments?
ICY TOUCH, Level 3 Wizard
CT 1 R Touch D 1 rnd
SV Dexterity SR yes Comp V, S, M
The caster delivers a touch that causes 1d4 damage per caster level to the target. The cold is so focused and intense that any object touched has the chance of freezing solid or becoming very brittle. Attended objects are afforded the Dexterity save of the owner. Unattended objects succumb automatically.
However, I've come up with a new spell. A failure in his personal spell research into Cone of Cold came up with a touch spell of limited, but ultimately more profitable, use to him.
Here's the preliminary stats on it... anyone have any comments?
ICY TOUCH, Level 3 Wizard
CT 1 R Touch D 1 rnd
SV Dexterity SR yes Comp V, S, M
The caster delivers a touch that causes 1d4 damage per caster level to the target. The cold is so focused and intense that any object touched has the chance of freezing solid or becoming very brittle. Attended objects are afforded the Dexterity save of the owner. Unattended objects succumb automatically.
I would define sizes/volumes that can be frozen. Such as 3 cubic feet/level for liquids and 1 cubic foot/level for solid objects, living objects only take damage.
That way they could also get into the "body freezing" business. They can freeze dead bodies because they are now an object. Be a "cool" spell verus animated undead.
That way they could also get into the "body freezing" business. They can freeze dead bodies because they are now an object. Be a "cool" spell verus animated undead.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Oh yeah... that's true. I should have indicated that. It's only inanimate objects that freeze, not living beings. They only take the damage (although I suppose if you exceeded their hit points only with appilcations of this spell, in rapid succession, you *could* rule a freezing. heh.
Thanks Treebore. Those are great suggestions.
Thanks Treebore. Those are great suggestions.
Except that most undead are immune to cold, have a resistance to it, or have their own cold aura making the spell rather pointless against such beings....
Now, against an ooze, its much more useful. Also, it should stipulate, like many other spells from the AD&D regime, that "any creature composed of water, such as a water elemental, or a plant suffers an additional +1 per die of damage dealt."
To differentiate, one just states what one wants. For example, the spell affects one pound of material per level, less five pounds if it is a hard metal (such as steel, carbon, or iron) or plus five pounds if it is a soft material such as flesh, leather, or rope; exceedingly durable materials (adamantine or glass) cannot be affected at all. Or whatever else you see it doing.
Now, against an ooze, its much more useful. Also, it should stipulate, like many other spells from the AD&D regime, that "any creature composed of water, such as a water elemental, or a plant suffers an additional +1 per die of damage dealt."
To differentiate, one just states what one wants. For example, the spell affects one pound of material per level, less five pounds if it is a hard metal (such as steel, carbon, or iron) or plus five pounds if it is a soft material such as flesh, leather, or rope; exceedingly durable materials (adamantine or glass) cannot be affected at all. Or whatever else you see it doing.
serleran wrote:
Now, against an ooze, its much more useful. Also, it should stipulate, like many other spells from the AD&D regime, that "any creature composed of water, such as a water elemental, or a plant suffers an additional +1 per die of damage dealt."
I like that. I'll be using it. Thanks.
Quote:
To differentiate, one just states what one wants. For example, the spell affects one pound of material per level, less five pounds if it is a hard metal (such as steel, carbon, or iron) or plus five pounds if it is a soft material such as flesh, leather, or rope; exceedingly durable materials (adamantine or glass) cannot be affected at all. Or whatever else you see it doing.
And this is a nice way of handling the amount of material affected. It will eliminate calculations of how much volume a sword takes up and the like. I will keep the cubic feet/level for water though.
It is pretty much in line with acid arrow, so I would say second level won't break a game.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Something else to consider: you should also describe how many gallons of liquid can be frozen by the spell, perhaps, 2 gallons per level of caster?
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Another spell from 3E to consider is Polar Ray. A ranged touch spell that does 1d6/caster level damage, no saving throw (the mage failing the attack roll is your save). It is nasty, but 8th level spell.
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BASH MAN wrote:
Something else to consider: you should also describe how many gallons of liquid can be frozen by the spell, perhaps, 2 gallons per level of caster?
I have it as 1 cubic foot per level for water, defined in my post above...
Quote:
And this is a nice way of handling the amount of material affected. It will eliminate calculations of how much volume a sword takes up and the like. I will keep the cubic feet/level for water though.