When on the CKG?

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Narl
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When on the CKG?

Post by Narl »

I just picked up the condensed rules from RPG Now and I'm pretty excited about C&C. When can we expect the CKG?

Thanks,

Narl

imperialus
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Post by imperialus »

The CKG has been back burnered for now, mostly because it is just a collection of optional rules and modifications that a CK can cherry pick from to suit his campaign. There is a thread discussing it here

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Narl
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Post by Narl »

Okay, thanks. From reading the other thread it sounds like I'll have the complete core game once I get the PHB and M&T. Off to the game store to see what I can find....

Narl

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Post by jman5000 »

[quote="imperialus"]The CKG has been back burnered for now, mostly because it is just a collection of optional rules and modifications that a CK can cherry pick from to suit his campaign. There is a thread discussing it here[/quote]

Other than the fact that it was not marketed that way (3 quick reasons);

a) the first book was called the 'Players' hand book, thus indicating that there 'should' be a 'GM' book as well

b) the back of the first printing prominatly displayed advertising for the M&T and for CKG

c) the first page (or 2nd) of the second printing - near the bottom of the page, has a paragraph discussing the CKG and M&T - again indicating a set.

for us forum goers, we know it's not necessary, but for the vast majority of the C&C PhB owners who don't visit various C&C forums, they would have NO clue, and thus rightly ask where is it?

Personally, and IMO, I think the 2 biggest dis-services that we are doing to C&C (now that it has matured into a popular game all its own) is to tell people that the CKG is not needed, and to direct people to buy other company out of print products to play this game...

it just feels bad-wrong to me...

cheers,

J.

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Post by Rhuvein »

Narl wrote:
Okay, thanks. From reading the other thread it sounds like I'll have the complete core game once I get the PHB and M&T. Off to the game store to see what I can find....

Narl

Welcome to the Crusade, Narl. The books are really excellent, I think you'll be quite pleased.

Enjoy the game! 8)
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Post by moriarty777 »

Personally, I find the notion of the CKG by some as 'not needed' rather amusing and maybe a bit disturbing. It's all a matter of perception.

All these wonderful moduals that TLG is putting out. -- one could argue that those aren't needed. Same goes for the rest of the Campaign Setting (formerly spelled 'Erde'), the magazines, or anything else for that matter. Save the PHB and M&T books...

However, we are liking all this other stuff that is being produced. Sure we won't necessarily get *everything* as we all have our likes and dislikes.

I don't think that the CKG will take anything away from the game either. It'll be more material to compliment the game is the CK is so inclined. I'm rather exited at the prospect. Sure, I can create my own stuff and do houserule variants, but there will always be the one thing I hadn't thought of or a better implementation of an idea I've already had.

One of my favorite books in AD&D (1st ed) as well as 3.5 was the Unearthered Arcana. If the CKG is going to have some similarities between itself and this marvelous tome, then I'm all for it.

Still waiting patiently,

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Post by Rhuvein »

moriarty777 wrote:
Personally, I find the notion of the CKG by some as 'not needed' rather amusing and maybe a bit disturbing. It's all a matter of perception.

Indeed and an interesting point. I do think some people will say "not needed" to those who are new and may think it's an essential core book. So they'll say you only need the PH or PH and M&T. So maybe, "not needed to get started", might be a better way to put it.

I don't need it, but will definitely buy it. And my guess is, that after reading it, I'll either use stuff from it or get ideas or change stuff or make house rules, etc.
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Post by Treebore »

When I say it is "not needed" I mean it in the context of "not needed to learn and run C&C." Guess I should make the effort to say it isn't needed in that context.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:
When I say it is "not needed" I mean it in the context of "not needed to learn and run C&C." Guess I should make the effort to say it isn't needed in that context.

Hey Treebore, I wasn't specifically thinking of any one example... It was more of a generality between this and the related thread over on Dragonsfoot.

It's all good.
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Post by Treebore »

It is still a good point.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Jackal
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Post by Jackal »

Needed or not, I spoke to Steve a few days ago and I'm told talks on the CKG will begin in a matter of weeks. So, while it's still some time away, it is coming.

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Post by Maliki »

Jackal wrote:
Needed or not, I spoke to Steve a few days ago and I'm told talks on the CKG will begin in a matter of weeks. So, while it's still some time away, it is coming.

8)
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Post by serleran »

As one can notice, there is (or was) a CKG forum here. Problem? Steve couldn't figure out how to get it to be password locked, and thus comply with NDAs and so forth... so, I bet, once he's got it all sorted (I think my idea will work, but as a non-admin, I can't test it) it'll open, and people can join in (with NDAs, of course) and the "big secret" will show itself.

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Post by jeff »

While I'm looking forward to the CKG, I'm more interested in getting the CK Screen. That has more immediate usage for me.

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Post by Shadowslayer »

You know...I've been wondering about this too. They've been advertising the CKG since the outset, and still nothing.

Every thread I've ever seen on this subject since then says the same thing: Well, yes we said it was coming...but even though we said that, you really don't NEED it to play the game. Its a complete game as is...etc etc etc.

This might be fine if we're assuming that all C&C players are refugees from other game systems. And if this is the case then so be it. But if it isn't, then I don't believe the game IS complete yet.

Rules wise, maybe. There isn't really anything more to be added to make the rules complete. But what about the stuff that will make the CKG an actual Guide for Castle Keepers. What good is a new multi-classing rule option if a rookie CK doesn't even know how to put a good adventure/dungeon/campaign/game/NPC/fantasy world together? And I'm sorry, but sending the rook down to do the used-bookshop-crawl trying to find a GM/DMs Guide for a different system that may be years out of print...well, thats amateur night to my way of thinking. Same with assuming they're gonna glean the internet for all this stuff.

I'd also add this: It seems to me, that the fantasy game community (even 3e'ers) considers the 1e DMG to be the classic. Its the biggie. Its the one everyone should have. There's a wonderful opportunity here to put out a CKG that could rival the old DMG for usefulness and utility, and become a new classic thats actually in print....and in my eyes, they're blowing that opportunity.

This is a great system and I love it a lot. I give kudos to its creators and am proud to play it. Don't get me wrong here. I'm just thinking that getting the game building tools into the CKs hands would be, you know, some kind of priority.

And fer cryiong out loud, if its nothing but a collection of rules options, then call the book as such. That's not a game master's guide.

Just my 2 cents.

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Post by Metathiax »

Quote:
There's a wonderful opportunity here to put out a CKG that could rival the old DMG for usefulness and utility, and become a new classic thats actually in print....and in my eyes, they're blowing that opportunity.

Actually, I kind of agree with you Shadowslayer. I don't think it's wise for TLG to rely so much on the competitor's material (no matter how compatible...). In my opinion, they should prioritise the publication of their 3rd corebook (since it's confusingly advertised this way...) before investing so much time and energy to release more modules (which won't sell as much as the CKG anyway...).

Well said!
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Post by Jackal »

The CKG will, indeed, have its share of optional rules but, at its heart, it will be a helping hand to all CKs. Due to the NDA I can't say much more than that (nor am I sure what will and won't make it from our old talks anyway to be honest) but it has always been the intention to make the CKG much more than a collection of optional rules.

However, having said that, nothing in the CKG will be needed to play the game. Which is a tricky statement because "need" tends to become a relative word when speaking of rule systems and the like. For example, I don't think C&C "needs" a book to teach CKs to be CKs...they'll learn in time, they have friends to help them, they have the Crusader to get interesting ideas, and they have trial and error. None of which relies on out of print material and all of which is better than a static book which teaches you how to be a CK.

So while I'm very much looking forward to the CKG for the optional rules, the advice, the new information, etc it's not a needed product in my eyes and the Trolls have been very wise in getting some of the easier projects out of the way before starting into this monster (another thing the NDA prevents me from saying is how BIG this book is going to be, or last I heard anyway). But, as much as I just can't wait to have it in my hot little hands, C&C would still be a complete game (as in all you need to play, not what you may want to play) without it.

But still, hurry up and open that CKF forum huh?

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Post by Shadowslayer »

Well yes...no one "needs" the CKG. That's been established over and over.

No one needed the 1e DMG either...but everyone had one.

Put it this way....theoretically: I'm a new CK, and I'm taking my first stab at designing a dungeon and an adventure to go around it. I'm not a messageboard junkie, never heard of "the Crusader" and I don't own any other RPG books. So what do I do....buy a D&D DMG? Gonna tell me I've got to sniff around the web? Come on.

I only hope five years of hearing "the game is complete, you don't need the CKG etc etc etc" on the internet, isn't enough to make people say "nah, who needs it....my game is complete already", then leave it on the shelf in the game shop to collect dust.

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Post by falrinth »

On the topic of 'teaching' CKing; did anyone else find the old 2nd Ed. Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide as useful as I did? Far from being an essential book, half of it was just advice on handling players and various situations in and out of the game. I loved it! As an aspiring DM, thirteen years of age, I read it time and again seeking advice and inspiration.

If the CKG was to include chapters in the same ilk I'd snap it up!

...not that I won't anyway I suppose...!

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Post by Inkpot »

I think the biggest problem with the CKG is the name. Call it "The Tome Of Secrets", and we wouldn't be having the discussion about whether or not it's needed for the game.

Calling it the Castle Keeper's Guide immediately makes everyone think of the Dungeon Master's Guide - a book needed to play. Change the name, folks.
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Post by Shadowslayer »

falrinth wrote:
On the topic of 'teaching' CKing; did anyone else find the old 2nd Ed. Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide as useful as I did?

Yep, that was one of the ones I kept.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

Shadowslayer wrote:
Yep, that was one of the ones I kept.

I've always found the Complete Book of Villains a good resource as well.

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