Official list of changes (PHB 4th) ?

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Thoom
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Official list of changes (PHB 4th) ?

Post by Thoom »

Is there going to be an official list of changes between the 4th printing of the Players' Handbook and previous editions? As the Trolls say "This is our fourth printing and represents the first real substantive changes to the game . . . " And it's true. Now that I have the soft cover, I wonder what changes there are that I may have missed. Some are easy to spot, some are perhaps not as easily found.

So please make an official list!
Thanks!
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Re: Official list of changes (PHB 4th) ?

Post by gideon_thorne »

http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/index.html

Top link where it says. Errata. It'll be updated when there is time.
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Re: Official list of changes (PHB 4th) ?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Thoom wrote:
Is there going to be an official list of changes between the 4th printing of the Players' Handbook and previous editions? As the Trolls say "This is our fourth printing and represents the first real substantive changes to the game . . . " And it's true. Now that I have the soft cover, I wonder what changes there are that I may have missed. Some are easy to spot, some are perhaps not as easily found.

So please make an official list!
Thanks!

I agree. I'm the type that doesn't catch something until I need to utilize it and then I'm suprised with a change. I still wonder how long I would have gone before I noticed the Shark in M&T didn't have stats.
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Post by Jason Vey »

Pete, I'm not so sure they're looking for errata as much as, "The Barbarian class now looks like x, the spell list for the Illusionist is now y," etc.

Changes to the game, not corrections of errors.

Or am I misreading you and such a list of alterations will appear in the errata?

The only major changes I noted were the Barbarian, which is completely and utterly changed, and the Illusionist spells, which have been substantially altered.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

The Grey Elf wrote:
Pete, I'm not so sure they're looking for errata as much as, "The Barbarian class now looks like x, the spell list for the Illusionist is now y," etc.

Changes to the game, not corrections of errors.

Or am I misreading you and such a list of alterations will appear in the errata?

The only major changes I noted were the Barbarian, which is completely and utterly changed, and the Illusionist spells, which have been substantially altered.

There will likely be a note that says "This class has changed" with, perhaps a bulleted list of changes, but I don't believe TLG is going to put the new stuff up entirely for free.

But if it goes up anywhere, that link is where its going to go.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:
There will likely be a note that says "This class has changed" with, perhaps a bulleted list of changes, but I don't believe TLG is going to put the new stuff up entirely for free.

But if it goes up anywhere, that link is where its going to go.

I thought there was a big discussion shortly before GenCon (a few weeks ago) where one forumite was very upset that things weren't going to be available for free (via errata/downloadable pdf). I thought, in that post, Steve did come on and say there would be an update pdf of the changes. Maybe I'm wrong, though. *shrug*
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Lord Dynel wrote:
I thought there was a big discussion shortly before GenCon (a few weeks ago) where one forumite was very upset that things weren't going to be available for free (via errata/downloadable pdf). I thought, in that post, Steve did come on and say there would be an update pdf of the changes. Maybe I'm wrong, though. *shrug*

If you'll look at the link on the TLG site, it has a bit where the modified fighter combat dominance is posted. Note, the whole fighter is not posted, just the modified ability.

I imagine the rest of the updates will follow a similar pattern.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:
If you'll look at the link on the TLG site, it has a bit where the modified fighter combat dominance is posted. Note, the whole fighter is not posted, just the modified ability.

I imagine the rest of the updates will follow a similar pattern.

Oh yeah, that's what I would suppose, too. I would imagine only the differences would get listed.
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Post by AslanC »

Will there be something like when Star Wars went from regular to advanced at WEG? Some kind of PDF of the changes?

Was there one for 3.5 as well? I don't know as I wasn't playing D&D at the time.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Oh yeah, that's what I would suppose, too. I would imagine only the differences would get listed.

True but, in the case of the Barbarian, it should include the new abilities and what they do but the experience point chart and 'fluff' would not be necessary... The Monks would have a list of such-and-such is now called 'x'.

The Illusionists should have at least a breakdown list of the new spells though not the full descriptions.

It's a fine line... but I know a few people that won't be happy otherwise.

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Post by moriarty777 »

AslanC wrote:
Will there be something like when Star Wars went from regular to advanced at WEG? Some kind of PDF of the changes?

Was there one for 3.5 as well? I don't know as I wasn't playing D&D at the time.

WOTC released some support documents listing the changes but this was short of actually providing the key information needed. So really, if you wanted to use the new Ranger or Half-Elf (just a couple of things that got tweaked from 3.0 to 3.5), you still had to have the 3.5 book.

This was the point that WOTC lost me as a loyal gamer.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

moriarty777 wrote:
WOTC released some support documents listing the changes but this was short of actually providing the key information needed. So really, if you wanted to use the new Ranger or Half-Elf (just a couple of things that got tweaked from 3.0 to 3.5), you still had to have the 3.5 book.

This was the point that WOTC lost me as a loyal gamer.

M

Yeah, it was really hard to swallow for me, too. But I agree, TLG can't give away the milk for free, so to speak, or no one will buy the proverbial cow. If changes are sought after by those who own a previous printing, then a "bare bones" update sheet should be a non-issue.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Yeah, it was really hard to swallow for me, too. But I agree, TLG can't give away the milk for free, so to speak, or no one will buy the proverbial cow. If changes are sought after by those who own a previous printing, then a "bare bones" update sheet should be a non-issue.

The moment that there are changes in a core book that will impact the game you are running or participating in depending on which version one has becomes an issue. This isn't a problem when it comes to the Monk or the Fighter's Combat Dominance -- those are mere corrections. But the Barbarian was a complete class change and the reason more spells were given to the illusionist was seen to make the class more playable. Those qualify as major changes. Or... at least as major as dropping a couple of feats, renaming a couple skills and tweaking a class and a race from D&D 3.0 to 3.5. Well there was also a lot of changes with duration for spells too but you get my point.

One of the guiding principles behind C&C was the notion of one edition and while it can be argued that 95% of the game didn't chance and that all the mechanics stayed the same, the same can be said of 3.0 vs 3.5.

Besides, it won't do TLG much good if the only people buying the newer books are the same people who bought earlier printings of the books. I would think that TLG wants the fanbase to grow.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

moriarty777 wrote:
The moment that there are changes in a core book that will impact the game you are running or participating in depending on which version one has becomes an issue.

Well, I really don't see how this is the case? I don't see how the few alterations are going to affect game play from one printing to another?

There are several versions of the Barbarian after all in different C&C products.
As for the illusionist, the class creates illusions, he's just got a longer list. The class itself is the same.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, I really don't see how this is the case? I don't see how the few alterations are going to affect game play from one printing to another?

There are several versions of the Barbarian after all in different C&C products.
As for the illusionist, the class creates illusions, he's just got a longer list. The class itself is the same.

I don't think the issue is gameplay. At least not in the case of the abovementioned poster in a thread that's now a few weeks old. The issue was having to shell out money for a book when the PHB wasn't wholly new - it was just an updated printing - and hoping that the updates would get posted so new PHB(s) wouldn't have to be purchased just for the changes. I guess gameplay is a small issue, as I'm sure if people are running different "printings" of the PHB, it can be an annoyance. I can see the merits of releasing an update pdf, for customer service if for nothing else.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Lord Dynel wrote:
I don't think the issue is gameplay. At least not in the case of the abovementioned poster in a thread that's now a few weeks old. The issue was having to shell out money for a book when the PHB wasn't wholly new - it was just an updated printing - and hoping that the updates would get posted so new PHB(s) wouldn't have to be purchased just for the changes. I guess gameplay is a small issue, as I'm sure if people are running different "printings" of the PHB, it can be an annoyance. I can see the merits of releasing an update pdf, for customer service if for nothing else.

Right... it is an annoyance (in terms of gameplay) and each person is likely to handle things differently. With D&D 3.5, there were those that didn't see the need to switch their 3.0 books. I know I didn't till much later but I eventually did it out of getting fed up with the annoyances of the little differences which did impact a few things in the game when people around the table had one or the other playing the same game. The difference was that WOTC didn't care about that plight.

It doesn't break the game... just renders things a bit annoying. A comprehensive PDF detailing these changes and giving supplying the new information to help conform an older printing of the PHB to the latest ones in terms of gameplay is really what I'm hoping for.

It would have everything to do with customer service but have virtually no impact on sales. Hell... I already my softbound copy of the latest printing and I plan on getting the hardback when available. I'm certainly not saying that *I* need it.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Must be just me then? I just find it baffling how minor changes in text can affect game play? Course, it should be borne in mind that I gamed with groups that thought nothing of playing with characters from several different game systems at one time, and the game master having no trouble dealing with each different system. Not to mention routinely converting characters back and forth from different game systems and editions.
See, with or without the new spells, in my campaign illusionists could conceivably convince others that they were clerics and heal them.

Rangers and barbarians could hunt, track, perform leatherworking and tanning on animals.

Classes, depending on their primes can have all sorts of background skills. This is worked out by the player deciding what the emphasis on their class is, with a good backstory.

So we can have fighters who are siege engineers, wizards who understand construction, rogues who are more tomb raider than thief, the list goes on.

And yet, none of this is codified into any sort of official rule.
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Post by moriarty777 »

I'm sure it's not just you and it would depend on the group you are playing with. I guess it's like comparing the earliest D&D ruleset to AD&D. Both accomplished the same thing and contributed to immense enjoyment. However, somewhere along the way they decided to codify various additional rules beyond the loose framework established.
By that same logic, I'm sure I could run a successful sort of game with the rules presented in the C&C Collectors set which only included the four basic classes. I'm sure it would work just fine.

That said, it isn't the same for everyone. I have one player who comes D&D 3.5 and hasn't played any earlier incarnations of that game. He likes the freedom and the faster pace that C&C gives him but still likes a level of that mechanical crunch.

We play C&C and, though some people won't mind as much about the latest changes to their favorite class -- others might. As someone who is also trying to promote the game (through demo's) and seeing that Gencon also had a little tournament game, I just like to see a level playing field presented.

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Post by Frost »

I think this is just a matter of Steve and the boys not having the time yet. They are busy with the CKG and other matters. I do think this kind of thing will make it to the errata one day, but that might take some time given TLG's current work load.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

moriarty777 wrote:
I'm sure it's not just you and it would depend on the group you are playing with. I guess it's like comparing the earliest D&D ruleset to AD&D. Both accomplished the same thing and contributed to immense enjoyment. However, somewhere along the way they decided to codify various additional rules beyond the loose framework established.
By that same logic, I'm sure I could run a successful sort of game with the rules presented in the C&C Collectors set which only included the four basic classes. I'm sure it would work just fine.

That said, it isn't the same for everyone. I have one player who comes D&D 3.5 and hasn't played any earlier incarnations of that game. He likes the freedom and the faster pace that C&C gives him but still likes a level of that mechanical crunch.

We play C&C and, though some people won't mind as much about the latest changes to their favorite class -- others might. As someone who is also trying to promote the game (through demo's) and seeing that Gencon also had a little tournament game, I just like to see a level playing field presented.

M

Well. AD&D was created for the sole purpose of having a common set of assumptions at tourneys. At least that's pretty much what Gary, Frank and the rest tell me.

So I can understand it from that point of view. But I've read a lot of strange things on the gaming fora, about problems within game groups, and can't really relate to most of it, since I've actually not ever encountered it in a group.

Groups I played with, we just sort of worked it out. Some folks got unhappy from time to time, but hell, that's going to happen no matter what ya do.
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Post by MacLeod »

I agree that it is a matter of customer service to provide errata for the masses. Think about it... if someone had purchased each printing of the PHB except for the new one, they are pretty close to $100 deep and that isn't even counting any of the M&T printings.

To clarify; I think precise and readily available errata is a must especially for this last printing. Its the least TLG can do for a loyal customer base.
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Post by moriarty777 »

MacLeod wrote:
I agree that it is a matter of customer service to provide errata for the masses. Think about it... if someone had purchased each printing of the PHB except for the new one, they are pretty close to $100 deep and that isn't even counting any of the M&T printings.

To clarify; I think precise and readily available errata is a must especially for this last printing. Its the least TLG can do for a loyal customer base.

Hehehe... Number of physical PHB's I have bought in the past for myself is 5. Number of physical M&T's I have bought to date? Also 5.

I have given one set to a friend and former gamer who never made it past D&D 3rd edition. One older set (2nd print PHB and 1st print M&T) are pretty much mint shape and never opened. One other 2nd print PHB which is the spare copy of rules for my game table (though almost all the players have their own copy -- all 2nd printing). I had been using the 3rd print PHB and 2nd print M&T behind the CK screen though this will be changing to my 4th print PHB and 3rd print M&T softcover copies soon enough.

Had there been no additions or changes in the M&T and PHB, I would have stuck with my older printing. However besides the game I run, I also edit and deal with the C&C line for BHP and I feel it important to remain up to date with my C&C ruleset since the PHB and M&T are integral to the game.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Must be just me then? I just find it baffling how minor changes in text can affect game play? Course, it should be borne in mind that I gamed with groups that thought nothing of playing with characters from several different game systems at one time, and the game master having no trouble dealing with each different system. Not to mention routinely converting characters back and forth from different game systems and editions.
See, with or without the new spells, in my campaign illusionists could conceivably convince others that they were clerics and heal them.

Rangers and barbarians could hunt, track, perform leatherworking and tanning on animals.

Classes, depending on their primes can have all sorts of background skills. This is worked out by the player deciding what the emphasis on their class is, with a good backstory.

So we can have fighters who are siege engineers, wizards who understand construction, rogues who are more tomb raider than thief, the list goes on.

And yet, none of this is codified into any sort of official rule.

I've played with many different systems as well. Not at the same time mind you, but my group has been diverse over the years and if it came down to it, I'm sure we could have a player with a character from a different game system and the game would go along just fine.

But if I've got one copy of rulebook X and the player's got a copy of rulebook X2, it's going to cause some little annoyances. Especially if he's playng an illusionist and keeps referencing nifty, new spells that I have no idea what he's talking about.

The other points you mention, while noteworthy, really are points of flavor...houserules, if you will. This is fine, as long as the table agrees that illusionists can heal, for example (as you mentioned as something you could do, even without a rulebook, which is correct). But I think there's a disconnect there, Peter, as I don't think what you're saying and what others are saying is the same thing. You seem to be saying (and I don't want to put word in your mouth ) is that the it shouldn't matter what the rulebook says, because you can do what you want anyway. I think the other side of this is that there's people out there that don't know that the rulebook now says, because things have changed. And these people, for reasons of their own, want to know what changes were made.

Whether they can come up with cool, interesting ideas of their own and do things not in the rulebook (despite the printing) is a different conversation.

No disrespect intended, Mr. Bradley.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Lord Dynel wrote:
You seem to be saying (and I don't want to put word in your mouth ) is that the it shouldn't matter what the rulebook says, because you can do what you want anyway.

Exactly. Folks ought to quit worrying about fiddly details and play.

Whether or not there are new spells for the illusionist or not should make no difference. If an odd ball spell comes up, then treat it like its a spell the illusionist invented.

I, for one, am delighted when a player asks me "Can I take this spell and change the descriptive effects." Shows me they are thinking outside of the box and not relying on what the book says.
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No disrespect intended, Mr. Bradley.

*chuckles* I don't take people having a different opinion than myself as a sign of disrespect.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Exactly. Folks ought to quit worrying about fiddly details and play.

Whether or not there are new spells for the illusionist or not should make no difference. If an odd ball spell comes up, then treat it like its a spell the illusionist invented.

I, for one, am delighted when a player asks me "Can I take this spell and change the descriptive effects." Shows me they are thinking outside of the box and not relying on what the book says.


*chuckles* I don't take people having a different opinion than myself as a sign of disrespect.

And I do agree with you. On a similar note, I had an issue with a person when first started running C&C. The guy felt like C&C was a bit inferior (to 3.5) because he couldn't do all the cool, nifty stuff he could in D&D. I finally got him to see the light - the things you can do in C&C aren't even limited by the "options" of the 3.5 PHB...the possibilities are truly endless!

That said, I still think that it's a bit of a seperate issue. Regardless of our ability to play ouside the box, it's still nice to have an up-to-date box to play outside of.
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Post by redbeard »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Exactly. Folks ought to quit worrying about fiddly details and play.

I agree.

Tell me then why I should even bother buying the new book?

If the book only has fiddly details that don't really matter, as you say, why am I buying them again?

*

I choose rule sets for the ease that our group can play a game. If the rule sets are contradictory, then they don't really make for ease of play, do they?

Unfortunately we have 3 different printings of the PHB at the table during play. While none of our players are rules lawyers, if someone makes a game decision based on their understanding of the rules, I have to waste time at the table explaining (to one side or the other) which version we're using.

The whole thing could be avoided by having a document listing "these are the areas where the 4th printing has differences." Then we could read the portions of the 4th printing that are changed and be up to speed instead of searching through page by page.

It boggles the mind that such a document didn't already exist in the process of making the 4th printing.

*

On Dragonsfoot, a post stated that the mechanics for Grappling are different.
Do I really have to page through the whole book to find changes like that?

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Post by Treebore »

Yeah, we can compile this into official errata ourselves, and make sure there are no spelling errors to boot! Then the Trolls/Society can host it.

For the record I own 14 PH's and 3 M&T's and one of each of everything else. I have 1 first printing PH, 5 second printings, 4 3rd printings, and the rest are 4th printing soft covers. Three bought at Troll Con and one bought at Gen Con.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

redbeard wrote:
I agree.

Tell me then why I should even bother buying the new book?

No reason what so ever.
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Post by Omote »

For me, and some of our players we realize that the first 3 printings of the C&C PHB were pretty good, but had some issues. We fixed some of these issues at the table, but with a game like this I think it's important to have the most codified, up-to-date, and supported rules at our table. The changes that were made to the 4th printing are simply the latest and best playtested rules of the C&C game. The changes that TLG made were needed greatly IMO, but of course didn't absolutely need to be made for the good of the game. For us the latest printing is a must have. That means we are all playing by the same rules, and for the most part under the same set of assumptions.

Personally I want the latest and greatest corrected version of this awesome game. I don't want to have to argue with a player who is using the 2nd printing when I am using the 4th printing. For the most part, we use the latest and greatest.

Now, a new edition is another story. We'll play by whatever the best edition is for us (and for C&C, there is only one edition regardless of the changes made to the Barbarian and the new spells added for the Illusionist).

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Two things.

For what its worth, I believe this will be the last overhaul for a good long time.

And, you should see notations on the changes between 3rd and 4th printing start going up on the site after the PHB hard backs are back from the printers and off to distributors.
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