Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

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Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Pretty straightforward and I'm sure this has been brought up before. But after reading the Barbarian thread (class vs. culture) I thought about the possibility of removing the class entirely and using "something" to give the flavor of the barbarian to a fighter. The first idea that popped into my head was kits from 2nd edition AD&D. Like I said, this has probably been discused, but I haven't seen it in the year that I've been around, so it's time to beat the dead horse again (if, in fact, this has been brought up already).

So...good idea? Bad idea? If they could be implemented, how should they be changed to reflect C&C rules (especially when considering the proficiency system)?

Discuss!

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Post by DangerDwarf »

If I were to use kits in C&C, instead of going with the huge 1,263,897 kits strung out through the various books I'd go with the more generalized kits found in Skills & Powers. It would give you a solid, varied base.

Personal preference would not be to write up conversions for them but to use them largely as is. The recommended Proficiencies would simply be areas of expertise in which I would likely allow level being added to SIEGE checks.

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Post by Relaxo »

What DD said.

A "tight" list of "standard" kits would make sense to me.

Sounds like a good article for the Domesday Book, LD.
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Post by CKDad »

You forgot option 3, for those of us who never played 2e - "WTH is a kit?"
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Post by Omote »

Yeah, they would work but I would kind of agree with the sentiments of DD and LD. You can either keep the kits controlled and narrow, or you can let them flourish. In the latter case, I would suggest letting kits fly in settings (setting specific kits) while keeping the base game free of them.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Good points, guys.

I think I might do some work on them, but I don't know. I've got so many coals in the fire as it is, I guess one more won't hurt.
CKDad - a kit is/was an "overlay" you applied to a character class. It presented different perks (usually in the form of bonuses to skill checks and such) and sometimes they also had some hindrances to them. A lot fo what the early kits were was roleplaying tools. They eventually got a littleoverpowered (many did) and were beginning to be seen as a curse as much as a blessing. They were great tools, IMHO, for deeper character development.
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Post by serleran »

Sure, it could work. I would probably make them Castle Keeper tools, rather than for a player, though. Essentially, NPC guidelines.
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Post by Frost »

Could they? Yes. Would I use them? Hell no. Too much trouble once one starts down the dark path...
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Post by serleran »

Frost, I sense in you a foreboding, perhaps even fear.

Kits will you have, mmm. Dark it will be. Balance to the class must it have.
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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by Keolander »

Lord Dynel wrote:
So...good idea? Bad idea?

I don't know why, but when I read this the first thing that popped into my head was the Good Idea/Bad Idea cartoon segment from Animaniacs.
I think Kits are a great way to expand the classes. However, like the others have said, some control needs to be kept on them.
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Post by Relaxo »

agreed.

I think in 2nd ed, they were the power creep that 3e manifested in the ever-expanding list of feats and prestige classes.

or something.
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Post by Frost »

It's my humble opinion that Prestige Classes were meant to be "fixed" kits. The term "prestige" was used to mean that they were special and not everyone had them. I also thought it was noteworthy they were in the DMG (at first), as if to say, "you might get one of these if the DM works it into the campaign." When they started showing up in player books, that drove the system back to the 2e kit mess and they were "prestige" class no longer.
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Post by Keolander »

Frost wrote:
It's my humble opinion that Prestige Classes were meant to be "fixed" kits. The term "prestige" was used to mean that they were special and not everyone had them. I also thought it was noteworthy they were in the DMG (at first), as if to say, "you might get one of these if the DM works it into the campaign." When the started showing up in player books, that drove the system back to the 2e kit mess and they were "prestige" class no longer.

I use something LIKE Prestige Classes I call Paths, but qualifying for them is definitely not something everybody does. For example, I have 2 Paths for Magicians: The Wizard's Cabal (based on a fusion of the DragonLance Order of High Sorcery and the Blackmoor Wizard's Cabal) and Arch-Mastery (sort of like Shadowrun's Initiation and OWoD Arch-Masters). Members of the Wizard's Cabal have magic that waxes & wanes with The Moons of Magic while Arch-Masters can walk the planes of reality to gain knowledge (Planeshifting is almost completely unheard of in my campaign...only a few even know of the Astral and they guard that secret jealously).

There are also Left-Handed Paths like Lichedom, but thats generally only for NPCs. Once you truly consign yourself to Chaos (which is what all Undead are spawned by) you have become Corrupt with a capital 'C'. Even Revenants (player race based on the World of Warcraft Forsaken Undead) have to worry about falling back to Chaos and becoming mindless undead.
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Post by Maliki »

When we ran 2E I liked kits, and almost everyone used them and I think they would work fine with C&C. As others have said the CK needs to keep a handle on it and not let them get out of control (as they did in 2E)
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Post by Treebore »

Here is how I used kits, I looked at the character concept and the kit they wanted to use for it. As they play give them pieces parts of the kit as an extra role play award, because they are playing their PC in such a way that the kit accentuates and rewards their play. If they don't play appropriately, they don't get anything.

Plus you keep total control of "kits".
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Post by Matthew »

The kit concept would work fine with Castles & Crusades, probably even better than with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, since you would not be dealing with proficiencies.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Good points all around. I think power creep did start hurting the kits starting probably around the time of The Complete Book of Elves (bladesinger, anyone?) and it just got worse from there. I think if the power creep was kept at a minimum, or non-existant, there wouldn;t be too much an issue, IMHO. As Matthew said, there wouldn't be proficiencies to deal with, so I think it might work. I might try to re-work a few and post them to see what everyone thinks.
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Post by papercut »

OverLord Google has this to say:
http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-236622.html
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Post by Zebulon »

Myself I am wondering what kind of character would result from adding Cavalier to the Knight class, or Berserker to the Barbarian class. I think the latter would fix the main problem with the barbarian, but for the knight-cavalier I am not sure, except that I would readily play one!
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Post by Lord Dynel »

papercut wrote:
OverLord Google has this to say:
http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-236622.html

Interesting thread, papercut. Some points made sense, others...not so much. But it's RPGnet, so hey.

One person mentioned that kits shouldn't be added to a "keep it simple" game such as C&C. That's a good point, but he ruined it by saying that if he wanted kits, he'd go play 2e. Kits did not define 3e, at least not to me. Not every game I played had kit. Games that I allowed kits not everyone used them. I think they're one more thing, like the coming Adjunts, that can be used to add flavor to the game.

Another post, one of the last ones was where the guy was stating that it made his "plain vanilla" halfling fighter something more. To me, kits would help with that, yes, but that's not something a little character story and playstyle can do...and working things out with your CK. I wouldn't want kits to be an excuse not to flesh out your character or not to roleplay a character based on concept.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Speaking of Adjuncts.

With the possible upcoming release of the CKG I'd personally go with adjuncts over converting kits. They both accomplish the same thing.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Speaking of Adjuncts.

With the possible upcoming release of the CKG I'd personally go with adjuncts over converting kits. They both accomplish the same thing.

At least we're assuming they do.
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Post by Arazmus »

bah..kits.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Undying thread is undying!

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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by DrRotwang »

Okay -- before I read the rest of this thread, and very likely find the answers I seek, I gotta say:

Omote?

...best avatar in the UNIVERSE.

Okay, back to reading.
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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

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Holy Necromancy...

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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by DrRotwang »

Okay, so -- how would you (I mean, you) implement them?

Here's what I'd do: since the major thing that the kits mess with is giving you (in 2nd Ed, anyway) access to some additional non-weapon proficiencies, I'd simply say that, if you take that kit, you can consider those profs as 'something your class can do', so you'd get to add your class bonus to an appropriate roll. If it adds a power or somethin', then...it...adds that power. Same with weapon proficiencies, and so on, and etcetera, and like that.

And, yeah, I'd limit the amount and variety of kits available in my game. Because I'm not stupid.

The notion of kits in C&C is much on my mind at the moment because I was looking at The Planewalker's Handbook (you know, for Planescape) and it gives a few example kits...and then it mentions, purely as an idea, an astral swashbuckler kit.

Hang on, let me write that again.

ASTRAL SWASHBUCKLER.

So...you see where I'm coming from.
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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by lobocastle »

I liked the kits in 2ed. I like the Bard's Handbook the best. Kits will work in C&C as people above have sugested using the SIEGE Engine. If I were to allow kits i would cut down the classes available to players.

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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by Relaxo »

I actually like teh Player's option , um, Option to build a class within certain bounds. Custom cleric! custom thief! etc. sweet! it did add a level of complexity, but the customization was coool.
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Re: Would 2e AD&D kits work for C&C?

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

I think they could work pretty easily, though the bonus non-weapon proficiencies might be a bit tricky. If I recall correctly, they also had the more old-school (older-school?) professions listed for them as well, which might fit better.

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