what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

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what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

Post by artikid »

I know there are already some similar topics but...
Encumberance: please use a pound based system and give us a weight for coins.
Fighters: I think they should get multiple attacks against all 1hd creatures regardless of HD type.
Brabarian: fix rage.
Rogues and assassins: drop the modifier for armor worn, I think that wearing prohibited armor should stop such characters from using their special abilities.

It's simpler and is more in line with the way such abilities are treated for other classes.
Monks: raise their AC and maybe introduce an acrobatics ability, lower HD to... 1d10
Bards: lower HD and give them some additional special abilities
Illusionists: Axe them, I'd insert spell schools and specialization for Magic users.
Siege system: I think that half level (rounded down) should be the base modifier used for all checks (including saving throws).

Full level should be used only for class or racial abilities, no modifier for level should be applied to checks that intrude in the realm of other class or race abilities.
starting languages: clarify exactly how many languages a starting character gets.
spell resistance: clarify if int (or wisdom for clerics and druids?) is applied to spell resistance checks or not.

Since secondary skills and multi-classing are going to be included in the forthcoming CKG I've not included them in my analysis/prayer/request/thingy.

Best regards and thanks for reading

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Re: what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

Post by gideon_thorne »

Only thing that's changing are some fixes for the barbarian and illusionist. No fundamental siege engine mechanics alterations will occur.

House rules are the best places for that sort of thing.
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Post by Omote »

Yeah, I have been begging for two years that the section on scrolls (out of the PHB) be completely rewritten. It is a very tough section to get straight. Just what exactly is "reading a scroll into a spell book" anyway?! The section is a mind-numbing.

-O
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Post by Aldarron »

It doesn't help that the print is so danged small. I suppose that's to keep down costs. What is most needed though is a stinking INDEX! I mean sheesh any old intern can put that together in a week or two and it would make finding things so much easier. I am with you on the illusionist, and I'd say the same for the druid. I always thought it was very strange to have these as full blown classes when they could easily be created by a good cultural backstory and a judicious selection of spells. Too many classes takes the role out of role playing- IMHO - but there's no point in trying to fight the momentum such things have built up over time and its easy enough to fix with house rules. I really would be inclined to purchase the 4th printing if it came with an index though.
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Post by Treebore »

Aldarron wrote:
It doesn't help that the print is so danged small. I suppose that's to keep down costs. What is most needed though is a stinking INDEX! I mean sheesh any old intern can put that together in a week or two and it would make finding things so much easier. I am with you on the illusionist, and I'd say the same for the druid. I always thought it was very strange to have these as full blown classes when they could easily be created by a good cultural backstory and a judicious selection of spells. Too many classes takes the role out of role playing- IMHO - but there's no point in trying to fight the momentum such things have built up over time and its easy enough to fix with house rules. I really would be inclined to purchase the 4th printing if it came with an index though.

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Post by Treebore »

The biggest reason I like illusionist in C&C is because most of it is truly different magic spells. Otherwise all Illusionist spells would be on the mage list and vice versa. Plus a Wizard cannot cast Illusionist Scrolls nor can an Illusionist cast Wizard Spells from scrolls. IE like it was in 1E, not 2E.

A "specialist" is just that, someone who concentrates all their efforts and intelligence to a certain set of spells, to the point of excluding the study and practice of other complete areas, but they are still a Wizard.

In fact back in previous editions it bugged me that "specialists" couldn't us magic items. Why not? Just because they ignored other areas of study? Its just words of activation, not spell casting! Either a wizard knows the arcane language and the "will and the way" or they don't.

With illusionists not even being able to detect magic, or wizards being able to detect Illusions, their differences are so fundamental I can accept that they cannot use each others magic items either. I couldn't buy that with specialists.
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Post by Treebore »

Omote wrote:
Yeah, I have been begging for two years that the section on scrolls (out of the PHB) be completely rewritten. It is a very tough section to get straight. Just what exactly is "reading a scroll into a spell book" anyway?! The section is a mind-numbing.

-O

I do agree that whole magic item section in the M&T could stand to be re written to make much more sense and to be more clearly understandable, and I think it would actually cut down on the word count while doing it.
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Re: what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

Post by Treebore »

Encumberance: please use a pound based system and give us a weight for coins.

Hmmm. I actually have the system figured out, with the errata being a big help, and I like it now. I have gold and platinum coins weigh 1 pound per 100, but I use small coins, not huge Spanish coins.
Fighters: I think they should get multiple attacks against all 1hd creatures regardless of HD type.

Agreed. In fact I go further, and allow multiple attacks versus opponents 1/3 their level.
Brabarian: fix rage.

I would have to see your fix first.
Rogues and assassins: drop the modifier for armor worn, I think that wearing prohibited armor should stop such characters from using their special abilities.

It's simpler and is more in line with the way such abilities are treated for other classes.

I guess I agree, because I had no idea such modifiers existed, so apparently have been ignoring them since day one.
Monks: raise their AC and maybe introduce an acrobatics ability, lower HD to... 1d10

Agreed, their AC advances 1 point per 2 levels, plus I allow them to wear Ring and Cloaks that modify their AC. Otherwise I would allow it to advance 1 point per level. I kept them at d12 though. If the PC wants acrobatics, take DEX as Prime.
Bards: lower HD and give them some additional special abilities

no, I like them as is. Since I think Decipher Script allows them to use Scrolls, they get spells.
Illusionists: Axe them, I'd insert spell schools and specialization for Magic users.

See my other post.
Siege system: I think that half level (rounded down) should be the base modifier used for all checks (including saving throws).

Full level should be used only for class or racial abilities, no modifier for level should be applied to checks that intrude in the realm of other class or race abilities.

Nope. I like how I do it, finally. I agree that BtB bugs me, which is why I have house rules.
starting languages: clarify exactly how many languages a starting character gets.

Their racial languages, +1 per point of INT modifier. I think thats even btb.
spell resistance: clarify if int (or wisdom for clerics and druids?) is applied to spell resistance checks or not.

It does not, check M&T errata.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:
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I kind of agree with Aldarron on this. Though I like it as is (with the seperate), I would be fine if they folded druids into clerics illusionists into wizards. Give a few sidebars within the respective class sections titled, "If you want to play a Druid..." or "If you want to play an Illusionist..."
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:
The biggest reason I like illusionist in C&C is because most of it is truly different magic spells. Otherwise all Illusionist spells would be on the mage list and vice versa. Plus a Wizard cannot cast Illusionist Scrolls nor can an Illusionist cast Wizard Spells from scrolls. IE like it was in 1E, not 2E.

A "specialist" is just that, someone who concentrates all their efforts and intelligence to a certain set of spells, to the point of excluding the study and practice of other complete areas, but they are still a Wizard.

In fact back in previous editions it bugged me that "specialists" couldn't us magic items. Why not? Just because they ignored other areas of study? Its just words of activation, not spell casting! Either a wizard knows the arcane language and the "will and the way" or they don't.

With illusionists not even being able to detect magic, or wizards being able to detect Illusions, their differences are so fundamental I can accept that they cannot use each others magic items either. I couldn't buy that with specialists.

The only caveat I think about when I think about illusionists is their "power origins," or whatever you want to call it. They are still arcance in nature, still derived from spell books, and the like. I wouldn't mind keeping spell lists seperate, if absolutely necessary (to keep flavor and a bit of uniqueness) but entries in the classes section I feel could be combined.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:
I do agree that whole magic item section in the M&T could stand to be re written to make much more sense and to be more clearly understandable, and I think it would actually cut down on the word count while doing it.

Agreed. I could get on board with this change.
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Re: what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:
Encumberance: please use a pound based system and give us a weight for coins.

Hmmm. I actually have the system figured out, with the errata being a big help, and I like it now. I have gold and platinum coins weigh 1 pound per 100, but I use small coins, not huge Spanish coins.

I've got it figured as well. I still think it would be easier to have a straight weight-based system, though. Maybe something for the CKG or Crusader?
Treebore wrote:
Fighters: I think they should get multiple attacks against all 1hd creatures regardless of HD type.

Agreed. In fact I go further, and allow multiple attacks versus opponents 1/3 their level.

Agreed, also, but I doubt thet'd would ever happen (the 1/3 their level thing...though it would be nice! ). I am already thinking about houseruling the extra attacks on all 1-HD creatures.
Treebore wrote:
Brabarian: fix rage.

I would have to see your fix first.

Well, my fix would simple be a revision to the side-effects, as I feel they're a little harsh. Otherwise, I think it's okay.
Treebore wrote:
Rogues and assassins: drop the modifier for armor worn, I think that wearing prohibited armor should stop such characters from using their special abilities.

It's simpler and is more in line with the way such abilities are treated for other classes.

I guess I agree, because I had no idea such modifiers existed, so apparently have been ignoring them since day one.

I agree that wearing prohibited armor should stop the character from the action - it would be much easier that way.
Treebore wrote:
Monks: raise their AC and maybe introduce an acrobatics ability, lower HD to... 1d10

Agreed, their AC advances 1 point per 2 levels, plus I allow them to wear Ring and Cloaks that modify their AC. Otherwise I would allow it to advance 1 point per level. I kept them at d12 though. If the PC wants acrobatics, take DEX as Prime.

What would you allow them to do with an acrobatics ability, artikid?

I'm lost a little, Tree...are monks not allowed to normally wear rings and/or cloaks?

I don't know where I'd adjust their HD, if at all. I wouldn't be all that opposed to moving it down to d8, myself.

I agree with an adjustment to monk AC, though.
Treebore wrote:
Bards: lower HD and give them some additional special abilities

no, I like them as is. Since I think Decipher Script allows them to use Scrolls, they get spells.

I actually also think the bard is really good as is. I kind of disliked their spell ability, myself. But I also like how many "non-casters" there are in C&C.
Treebore wrote:
Siege system: I think that half level (rounded down) should be the base modifier used for all checks (including saving throws).

Full level should be used only for class or racial abilities, no modifier for level should be applied to checks that intrude in the realm of other class or race abilities.

Nope. I like how I do it, finally. I agree that BtB bugs me, which is why I have house rules.

What bugs you about BtB, exactly, Tree? Otherwise, I like the SIEGE system, though I've fiddled with them (in theory only) a bit - like making class abilities either 12/15 (everything else being 12/18).
Treebore wrote:
starting languages: clarify exactly how many languages a starting character gets.

Their racial languages, +1 per point of INT modifier. I think thats even btb.

I agree with artikid on this. It does seem a little vague, to me. Is the +1 per point from the list in their racial description, or is the +1 in addition to their list (meaning they get all the languages in their racial descriptions)?
Treebore wrote:
spell resistance: clarify if int (or wisdom for clerics and druids?) is applied to spell resistance checks or not.

It does not, check M&T errata.

Isn't spell resistance just a straight roll? Am I missing something Tree (concerning your mention of the M&T errata)?
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Post by moriarty777 »

The only big thing I hope gets corrected is the Encumbrance to reflect the Errata that has been posted here on the boards. This somehow missed being put in the 3rd printing so I hope it'll finally end up in the 4th.

I know most people are loathe to use it but I do like it and have used it in the past.

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Post by CKDad »

Aldarron wrote:
What is most needed though is a stinking INDEX! I mean sheesh any old intern can put that together in a week or two and it would make finding things so much easier.

While I'm with you on desiring an index, I doubt there's any company in the game industry outside of WOTC that's big enough to have interns.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

CKDad wrote:
While I'm with you on desiring an index, I doubt there's any company in the game industry outside of WOTC that's big enough to have interns.

Fairly certain paizo's got 'em.

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Post by CKDad »

Lord Dynel wrote:
I kind of agree with Aldarron on this. Though I like it as is (with the seperate), I would be fine if they folded druids into clerics illusionists into wizards. Give a few sidebars within the respective class sections titled, "If you want to play a Druid..." or "If you want to play an Illusionist..."

Illusionists as a subset of wizards - maybe. But druids are a separate and distinct kind of priest that I don't think can be rolled into clerics. At least not without making the cleric class much more complex and going done the road of customization and subclasses - and next thing you know, you're at 3.x.

Druids have unique and distinctive abilities as a class, separate and distinct from those of the cleric. Merging doesn't seem to be an option.
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Post by CKDad »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Fairly certain paizo's got 'em.

I stand corrected!
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Post by Moorcrys »

I'm completely against folding the illusionist into a 2nd edition-like watered down specialization mechanic. It was a waste.... the illusionist spells are balanced against each other as a class... when you start allowing standard wizards access to the sweetest illusionist spells, like Improved Invisibility, it's more trouble than it's worth. It also completely de-flavors the illusionist.
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Re: what I'd like to see in PHBk 4th printing....

Post by Treebore »

Lord Dynel wrote:
I'm lost a little, Tree...are monks not allowed to normally wear rings and/or cloaks?



What bugs you about BtB, exactly, Tree? Otherwise, I like the SIEGE system, though I've fiddled with them (in theory only) a bit - like making class abilities either 12/15 (everything else being 12/18).



I agree with artikid on this. It does seem a little vague, to me. Is the +1 per point from the list in their racial description, or is the +1 in addition to their list (meaning they get all the languages in their racial descriptions)?



Isn't spell resistance just a straight roll? Am I missing something Tree (concerning your mention of the M&T errata)?

Languages: Page 123 is very clear on how languages work in C&C. Vulgate language+ racial language+1 language per point of INT.

Spell Resistance: I forget where the confusion came from, maybe early errata, but there was a question of whether or not INT or WIS bonus' could be added to SR checks, it was then later clarified that it is not added.

BtB (by the book) bothers me because of how irritating class, non class abilities and if they get to add a skill point or not. So I have changed it to where everyone gets to add level, and having it as a class skill gives you an additional +3. Plus in order to do anything with a CL of +6 or greater it must be a class ability in the case of pick locks, pick pockets, find/remove traps, and poison creation. Otherwise level is added. Plus in the case of class abilities will you be considered "invisible" or completely silence with regards to moving silently and hiding.

Thats off the top of my head, so I am likely forgetting other rules details I came up with.

The 12/18 divide does not bother me. I like the characters having definite weak areas that they will still fear even when they are 20th level. In every other edition of D&D 20th level characters did not fear making saving throws. In C&C they do.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

I must have missed page 123. It does make sense to me now, though. I think that the demi-humans do get a ton of languages at start, but maybe this is another one of the "humans get three primes" offest?

As far as the rest goes, I'm understanding it pretty well now.
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Post by Aldarron »

CKDad wrote:
Illusionists as a subset of wizards - maybe. But druids are a separate and distinct kind of priest that I don't think can be rolled into clerics. At least not without making the cleric class much more complex and going done the road of customization and subclasses - and next thing you know, you're at 3.x.

Druids have unique and distinctive abilities as a class, separate and distinct from those of the cleric. Merging doesn't seem to be an option.

Yeah it would take some tinkering, but can't be done? I don't buy it. The problem is that these kinds of classes lead to the question of thousands of other equally valid priest types or magic user types from the 10,000+ known human cultures. Why should the PhB just stop with celtic druids? Why not sub saharan Witch Doctors, Siberian Shamen, Tibetan Monks, Whirling Dervishes, Haitian Bocors, Hebrew Prophets, Mycenean Seers etc. ad infinitum. These clerics are not "all the same" and are every bit as culturally distinctive as druids. Lots of people have made character classes based on these types and others and if it fits their game that's great but I'd rather not see the Troll Lords stroll down that path with official "new classes" products etc. That's one of the things I don't like about WoTC D&D - all those classes and add ons and more and more stuff that just weighs down the game. So its not that I object to the classes as being wrong somehow, just that its strange to single them out to be seperate classes in the PhB.
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Post by Treebore »

Actually if they can be written with as much flavor and uniqueness as the Druid class is I would welcome all of those variant priest type classes.

A Druid cannot be rolled into the Priest class just because of their ability to shape change into animals and a treant, plus in my games they can also go the "elemental" route. That is what makes Druids unique and cool to me.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Aldarron wrote:
The problem is that these kinds of classes lead to the question of thousands of other equally valid priest types or magic user types from the 10,000+ known human cultures. Why should the PhB just stop with celtic druids?

Because over the past few decades, druids have become a staple of D&D and games which give a nod to D&D. I don't particularly care for them, but a lot of folks deem them necessary.

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Post by Aldarron »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Because over the past few decades, druids have become a staple of D&D and games which give a nod to D&D. I don't particularly care for them, but a lot of folks deem them necessary.

True that.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Pretty much what DD said. They, for whatever reason stuck EGG's fancy, he decided to throw "celtic-like" druids into the mix. And from that point it stuck. I think the idea of a nature priest was a good idea - it's differnet enough to warrant its own class (at least, to many), but still not way, way out there.
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Post by Traveller »

Druids made their first appearance as a monster in the Blackmoor supplement, and were turned into a character class by Brian Blume in Eldritch Wizardry.
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Xaltotun
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Post by Xaltotun »

I like the Illusionist as it is, but I also like schools of magic, even to the extent of forcing all Magic-users to be specialists. This creates a duplicity, as there would then be "true Illusionists" and Magic-users who are "illusion specialists". This can be explained away with fluff, here's how I'd do it:

"True Illusionists" use a different type of magic entirely. Whereas Magic-users use the occult laws and energies that are wholly natural to the universe (as the classic Hermetic magician), Illusionists have a more philosophical bent. They use their strong will to totally replace the natural universe with one of their own making. Thus, a Magic-user strives to learn and understand to be able to manipulate existing reality, while an Illusionist strives to detach him/herself from reality altogether, to destroy it and create new realities from his/her imagination. A Magic-user is like a scientist, interested in fact. An Illusionist is like an artist, interested in fiction. This would also add friction between the two groups, which is always good for purposes of group dynamics and adventure seeds. Then, a Magic-user who specializes in the school of illusion studies the mind and the senses, using natural laws of magic to manipulate those. A true Illusionist could not care less about how the mind works: he/she strives to hone his/her will to be like a sharp knife, with which to cut and paste reality like a jigsaw puzzle. I might even grant the true Illusionist freedom of material components of spells, to emphasize their immaterial, philosophical, and "unnatural" leanings.

All this said, I have a suspicion that this might complicate things too much if printed in the PHB. One can easily house rule all this anyway, using AD&D to get the schools of magic.

Xaltotun

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Post by serleran »

Also, as I understand it, Tim Kask was very desirous of a druid (along with psionics) in OD&D, but yeah, they started as opponents... not as playable characters.

Heck, the ranger was not originally in D&D -- it was added via an article in Strategic Review or somesuch.
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Post by Frost »

I really don't have too many suggestions since I've only run C&C a few times. But here is my wish list.

1.) Alphabetize the class descriptions (rather than by prime attribute).

2.) General comment: when revising any text, assume the reader has not played before. There are various bits in the book that often seem to assume the reader is a veteran player.

By the way, there was a very similar thread in Open Discussion before:
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... php?t=6333

Edit: I reviewed the 3rd printing PH more on my lunch break.
3.) Regarding languages:
Quote:
I must have missed page 123. It does make sense to me now, though. I think that the demi-humans do get a ton of languages at start, but maybe this is another one of the "humans get three primes" offest?

Yes, that info is on page 123, but that is after at least two other sections that deal with languages (the intelligence description and the race descriptions). I too think that is a buttload of languages for demi-humans to start with. If that is the official rule, so beit, but I'm going to use the 3e method (the languages listed by race are ones that can be chosen by the Int modifier, not that you get those languages on top of what you get with your Int modifier).

4.) Not a huge deal, but move the racial section before the classes. Seems to make more sense to me that way, especially considering the PC creation process (i.e., the racial modifiers adjust your attribute scores).

5.) Make the class weapon list match up closer with the weapon list later in the book. For example, "dirk" and "brass knuckles" aren't listed for the rogue. Sure, that seems obvious, but such details make for a tighter book.

(on a related note, the M&T armor and weapons lists don't really match up with the C&C PH, but rather the D&D PH)

6.) An index would be great and would help with various issues, e.g., the language confusion cited above.

7.) I really don't have a problem with the encumbrance system, but maybe that's because I never sweated that kind of thing much.

8.) Generally, nostalgia aside, the 3e PH is better organized than the 1e PH. It seems like the C&C PH is shooting for the 1e model, but I think the 3e model is simply more useful.

Some things I wouldn't change.

1.) the font... I like how the pages are crammed with gaming goodness

2.) the art... it's great... if anything, put more in
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Post by RLW »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Pretty much what DD said. They, for whatever reason stuck EGG's fancy, he decided to throw "celtic-like" druids into the mix. And from that point it stuck. I think the idea of a nature priest was a good idea - it's differnet enough to warrant its own class (at least, to many), but still not way, way out there.

I've re-interpreted the druid class as a shaman, whose spells and abilities get tweaked according to his particular flavor of belief and practice. Thus you have one class (the cleric) to represent organized religion, developed theology, and worship of divine powers, and you have another (the shaman) to represent tribal culture and animism, or potentially an eremitic sort of spirituality on the outskirts of civilized society.

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