Least favorite class

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Least favorite class

Post by Mac Golden »

What is your least favorite class, and why?

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Post by serleran »

Paladin. I have always not liked the lawful good restriction. I understand it, from an archetype PoV, but I do not agree with it.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

I said knight. I guess that was a little unfair, as I don't really find too much fault with any of them. But it seems like, if my had was forced, I would have to say knight. I think that knight is a little too niche, IMHO. That could probably be said about all the non-Big 4 though.

It might be my overexposure to D&D and its lack of a knight classs that made me pick on him, too.
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Post by Akrasia »

The Barbarian. Mechanically it's an absurdly weak class (I can't understand why anyone would choose it over the fighter or ranger). Conceptually, the idea of a 'barbarian' is a cultural one, not a professional one, IMO.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

Akrasia wrote:
The Barbarian. (I can't understand why anyone would choose it over the fighter or ranger).

1. Massive hit points at first level.

2. Misplaced love of all things Conan.
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Post by Fizz »

Guess it depends by what yardstick you measure `favorite'?

Least favorite to play? In that case it'd be the bard or paladin. I don't have a problem with either concept- they're just not my type of character.

Least favorite in mechanics? In that case the barbarian. I tweak all the classes, but the barbarian needed so much it became a new class- the berserker.

Least favorite in terms of setting? That'd be the monk. It was a superbly done class, but is tricky to fit into medieval fantasy.

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Post by Fiffergrund »

I would like to echo Akrasia. "Barbarian" is a cultural designation, not a profession.

I voted for barbarian.

Knight is a close second. I don't find it to be a compelling class, as written. In fact, I think it's downright boring. Horsemanship skills? Bleh. How often do they come into play on a dungeon crawl?

I'd rather play a chivalric fighter, any day.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

Fiffergrund wrote:
Knight is a close second. I don't find it to be a compelling class, as written. In fact, I think it's downright boring. Horsemanship skills? Bleh. How often do they come into play on a dungeon crawl?

I voted for the knight myself. I had to snicker over your horsemanship comment. In my current campaign, the 1st level knight's steed didn't survive to the second play session. He had to park it outside the dungeon where it was eaten while the party was inside.

I'm not too big a fan of the bard or barbarian either. On the other hand, I love the monk (once I house-rule that the class AC is one higher at every level than it is statted in the PHB (AC 10 at first level? It's as easy to hit an unarmored wizard as a martial arts expert at first level? Seriously?)). Sure, you didn't see a lot of monks in Arthurian legend, but you didn't see them in westerns until Kung Fu either. If you just let go of stereotypical fantasy tropes, I can't see any problems with integrating the monk.
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Post by Treebore »

Monk is the one I chose. No one has even considered playing the Monk in any of my games for more then a couple fo minutes.

The Knight is actually pretty effective once he gets a couple of levels under his belt. Horsemanship definitely does not work in dungeons either.

Barbarian has great flavor, but I agree he does not have much mechanical strength.
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Post by serleran »

Just change "horsemanship" to "mounted combat" and it works for all manner of things -- halflings (and orcs and goblins) on wardogs, gnomes on wartoads...

At least, that's what I do to the class to make it more enticing, for non-humans. If I had to bitch about something about the knight (other than it is a title, not a class, much like barbarian is a culture...) it would be that it is far too humanocentric. Every other class can be easily played by every race, but not the knight. Small races can't ride horses. And, warpony just doesn't have the same effect.

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Post by nwelte1 »

Barbarian..... FTL

On the other hand I like monks. I wish I had the opprotunity to play one, but every group I have been in needs more muscle than the monk offers..

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Post by Buttmonkey »

serleran wrote:
Just change "horsemanship" to "mounted combat" and it works for all manner of things -- halflings (and orcs and goblins) on wardogs, gnomes on wartoads...

At least, that's what I do to the class to make it more enticing, for non-humans. If I had to bitch about something about the knight (other than it is a title, not a class, much like barbarian is a culture...) it would be that it is far too humanocentric. Every other class can be easily played by every race, but not the knight. Small races can't ride horses. And, warpony just doesn't have the same effect.

I like that tweak. Consider it swiped. Now my demihuman players can spend their time trying to catch and tame a wartoad.
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Post by seskis281 »

I voted Barbarian, but not because I've looked at it closely enough to say it's this or that, just that I've never liked or wanted to play one as far back as I can remember. Just personal tastes I guess.

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Post by Akrasia »

Buttmonkey wrote:
... Misplaced love of all things Conan.

But the barbarian class actually has nothing to do with Conan. It doesn't resemble Conan in any way.

Going by Howard's stories, Conan should be a ranger/thief/fighter (started out as a ranger, then a brief spell as a thief, and finally a fighter).
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Post by Rhuvein »

That list contains my favorites - even if the barbarian needs a little reworking.

But my least favorite class is a fighter. I've played them enough that I like something a little more interesting and challenging as a role player.

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re: Least Favorite Class

Post by Jonathan of White Haven »

I voted Barbarian. While the class, as written up in the C&C PHB is somewhat different from the write-up in the 1e UA, it still leaves me cold. There's less of an emphasis on the Barb's "mistrust" of magic (practitioners, as well as enchanted items). But beyond the additional HP, there's little to recommend a Barb over a so-called "civilized" Fighter.

The Knight ran a close second for me. The C&C Knight is a somewhat reworked 1e UA Cavalier. Granted, he seems to have a few more abilities available to him than the Cav does, but the class appears to be geared more towards commanding groups and armies more than for the Adventurer's Life. And, unless you house-rule some sort of social class "obstacle", just about anyone can be a Knight.

The Paladin was third on my least-liked list. When compared to the 1e AD&D Pally, the class has been partially emasculated (no Clerical spells gained at middle levels, no requirement for a high CHA score), and ends up being more a goody two-shoes Fighter than anything else. With the exception of being able to use any weapon, what's the Paladin got that a Lawful Good Cleric doesn't?

The Bard is next on my list. I've never played a Bard. Since I can't carry a tune in a bucket, nor am I anything close to being poetic, the class has never interested me. In 1e AD&D, the class seemed to me to be an afterthought, appearing in the back of the PHB, well-separated from the othe PC listings.

Perhaps I may try playing a Monk some day.
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Post by sieg »

As the primary author of the Knight class, I must say I don't like how it got changed so that they only can have a "Riding Horse" at start. C'mon! Its like requiring Fighters to start with only leather armor. It compromises one of the arguably main points of the class.
With a war horse, the Knight can leave the horse outside a dungeon and it will not need to be tied up; they are trained to stay in the area. It can also defend itself (and other horses) and even run away if necessary. But a riding horse? Lunch.
I will agree that the Knight class is rather humanocentric. Which IMO is a good thing but tastes vary.

My dislike? Before TrollCon I would've said Monk and only due to thematic reasons. Now? The !@#$ Illusionist! USELESS at low levels in a dungeon or wilderness environment. The class might be tolerable in a city scenario but anywhere else? Just a trumped up torchbearer.
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Post by Go0gleplex »

I voted Barbarian simply because every time one has been in the party, it's been very disruptive and not all that beneficial. Granted, this also has something to do with how the player runs the charater...but....
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Post by Thoom »

Quite interesting to read as a newcomer to CnC. I've played AD&D for 25 years so I read the comment with that experience in mind and it's interesting to me to see the comments on the CnC variants.

I'm a bit surprised by the comments on Barbarians. Not because I'd ever want to play another one in AD&D but because on my brief read of the class in CnC I thought that it was better than in AD&D. I haven't had any experience with CnC yet (CKing my first game next week!), and I look forward to my players' take on this fresh look on classes.

Seems to me that classes in general are more balanced in CnC than in AD&D (or perhaps I should say better integrated with the usual adventuring group).

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Post by sieg »

Welcome Thoom!

I'd say that the 1E Barbarian (and Cavalier) were unbalancing. IMO, the Knight is more balanced (though give 'em a light warhorse to start) but the Barbarian seems a bit weak. I've never played a C&C one (only one during 1E) but the arguments given are pretty convincing.
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Post by shadoes »

Of that list the illusionist. over the wizard in general. I have never been big on playing casters though. At least pure casters. to flimsy

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Post by Omote »

While barbarian might be the weakest class mechanically speaking I had to go with the illusionist. I just cant get away from the fact that it feels like nothing more then a specialty wizard.

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Post by Jonathan of White Haven »

sieg wrote:
As the primary author of the Knight class, I must say I don't like how it got changed so that they only can have a "Riding Horse" at start. C'mon! Its like requiring Fighters to start with only leather armor. It compromises one of the arguably main points of the class.

Well, that one's easy enough to houserule, though it shouldn't be necessary. One problem I see is that noob CKs who don't have easy enough access to these forums may never even think about making up houserules to cover such relatively minor deficiencies.
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With a war horse, the Knight can leave the horse outside a dungeon and it will not need to be tied up; they are trained to stay in the area. It can also defend itself (and other horses) and even run away if necessary. But a riding horse? Lunch.

This does depend heavily on the CK and his level of evil-ness. It's been a long time since I've played in a truly killer dungeon/world setting, but I learned very early on that if it was possible to get to the dungeon by shanks' mare, it was far better to leave Dobbin safely stabled.
I do play a Knight (formerly a 1e-based Unearthed Arcana Cavalier) in a converted C&C game. It's not that I particularly wanted to run one, but I saw interesting possibilities for using him as a foil to a Paladin (created under the same UA rules) who has a really oversized ego problem. (The problem more accurately belongs to the rest of the players.) The GM/CK went along with my plans. (The Pally didn't have sufficient Social Class to be one from the git-go, so he had to work his way up from minus XP via the Squire system in order to "win his spurs" as a Paladin.) In my case, the GM/CK allowed me to roll a modified d100 against the UA's Social Class table to set my character's SC as one level higher than the Paladin's. This was done so that I could rub the Paladin's nose in his less-than-noble birth. (Sadly, that hasn't seemed to work. He is rather full of himself...)

The Paladin in question thinks he's God's Gift to the world, and my Knight does his best to disabuse the Paladin from this notion. Having been nobly born (2nd son to a Marquis, and thus retaining the title "Lord", but won't inherit unless his NPC elder brother happens to snuff it), he's intimately familiar with the social interplay amongst the high-born, while the Paladin is not.

It's fun at times, especially when the Paladin managed to put both booted feet into his mouth by inadvertently casting aspersions on my character's newly-acquired manse. ("...humble home", indeed! A man's home is his castle, and insulting its quality, however innocently, is simply NOT DONE, old boy!) I angrily (and publicly, with the rest of the party members in attendance) returned his proffered house-warming gift (a rather nice hearth rug), strongly suggested that since my abode wasn't up to his standards he needn't sully his honor by suffering to visit again, and accepted his rather embarrassed apology for his churlish faux pas shortly thereafter.

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Quote:
I will agree that the Knight class is rather humanocentric. Which IMO is a good thing but tastes vary.

As a CK, I'm fairly easy-going. If the player can convince me that the backstory for their proposed Half-Orc Knight actually does make sense...
Quote:
My dislike? Before TrollCon I would've said Monk and only due to thematic reasons. Now? The !@#$ Illusionist! USELESS at low levels in a dungeon or wilderness environment. The class might be tolerable in a city scenario but anywhere else? Just a trumped up torchbearer.

One of my players is discovering precisely that with his Monk/Illusionist, at least in dungeon-crawl situations. His most effective spell at his current level (2nd) is Color Spray. The problem is that he tends to be in the middle or at the end of the "marching order", which minimizes his chances to be able to maneuver to a position early enough to cast the spell without['/b] catching fellow party members in its effects. And, of course, his melee abilities as a Monk are limited, especially since his AC is controlled mainly by his DEX (16). He did acquire Bracers of Armor +1 and a Ring of Protection +1 recently, so this may improve his survivability somewhat. In the past, he's been on the ground bleeding out almost as often as he's been on his feet.
His other limiting factor is that he's a Gnome. 'Nuff said there.
Monks as PCs:

I think, with an inventive-enough player, a Monk can be played in a fashion that will fit into a Medieval-to-early Renaissance setting. Make sure that his DEX is high enough to make him survivable (17 or better), STR next highest, then CON or WIS, ignore the chop-socky stuff in the early stages of his career (any simple weapon, even a quarterstaff, does more damage early on), and perhaps persuade the CK to houserule reductions of the multiple-hit minuses when they finally become useful. (I'm sorry, but the ones listed in the PHB are, IMO, too restrictive to make the Monk truly useful until their BtH is greater than the minus for the off-hand strike. The same goes for those Ranger characters that want to dual-wield light weapons.) If possible, the CK can make him a member of a monastery which requires him to while interacting with the Steaming Thousands. Certainly workable, but might also need fairly extensive one-on-one play.
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Post by dachda »

I've never liked the monk class, in 1e or in C&C. Mostly as I find it hard to justify what is essentially an Asian construct in otherwise western european campaigns. I suppose a CK or player could invent a good reason why such a monk would be found in a european type setting, but haven't seen it yet.

I'm still new to C&C so can't speak to the relative strengths/weaknesses of the classes mechanics wise yet.
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Post by seskis281 »

Interesting -- I played an Elf Illusionist in an online game two years ago at 1st level and had a blast - he even did pretty well with the bow (which he got his racial bonus on).

So have to do something rare here - I think Sieg's wrong. (Ducks)

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Post by Treebore »

seskis281 wrote:
Interesting -- I played an Elf Illusionist in an online game two years ago at 1st level and had a blast - he even did pretty well with the bow (which he got his racial bonus on).

So have to do something rare here - I think Sieg's wrong. (Ducks)

I think the effectiveness also has to do with how his CK adjudicates Illusions to begin with.
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Post by serleran »

Quite. Also, the situations one is placed in. Even a cleric of magic-user can be rendered boring and useless in a game, despite the fact they are probably the most powerful of the classes.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
Quite. Also, the situations one is placed in. Even a cleric of magic-user can be rendered boring and useless in a game, despite the fact they are probably the most powerful of the classes.

Yep. There has been a number of times when the mage loaded up on sleep spells because they had been fighting orcs, and then they got to the burial mounds and the opponents became undead. Mage was completely useless until they were able to rest.
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Post by csperkins1970 »

Akrasia wrote:
The Barbarian. Mechanically it's an absurdly weak class (I can't understand why anyone would choose it over the fighter or ranger). Conceptually, the idea of a 'barbarian' is a cultural one, not a professional one, IMO.

Agreed! The class, as written, is lame.
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Post by danbuter »

I also picked the Barbarian. It's just plain weak.
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