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I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:24 pm
by GameOgre
so I can raid it for my C&C game!!

What sort of neat things can I steal? Will the adventures cross over to C&C as easy as the rest? Only time can tell and he isnt talking to matter how I torture him!
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:34 pm
by Kathorus
Hopefully they will release the SRD at about the same time as the books, so I can raid it for free.

Something else I wonder about is the core book releases every year. I wonder if "Core" means inclusion in the SRD.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:01 pm
by moriarty777
Kathorus wrote:
Hopefully they will release the SRD at about the same time as the books, so I can raid it for free.

Something else I wonder about is the core book releases every year. I wonder if "Core" means inclusion in the SRD.

That's an interesting question and one I've been wondering myself.

M
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:09 pm
by CharlieRock
Are you kidding? With the piles of D&D stuff (Classic and part3) I got enough to go on for several months. I'm starting to get a bit tired of converting stuff to C&C. Maybe if we all went over to KenzerCo forums and demanded they make their Dangerous Denizens for C&C I would be ecstatic (think that's too far fetched? Check the credits. ). It's my fault. I told my CK I would do it. She likes KoK and I figured most of it was just systemless descriptionation.

pfffff ... anyway. I got to the aquatic dragon. not even a quarter of the way yet.
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:23 pm
by Brutorz Bill
CharlieRock wrote:
Are you kidding? With the piles of D&D stuff (Classic and part3) I got enough to go on for several months. I'm starting to get a bit tired of converting stuff to C&C. Maybe if we all went over to KenzerCo forums and demanded they make their Dangerous Denizens for C&C I would be ecstatic (think that's too far fetched? Check the credits. ). It's my fault. I told my CK I would do it. She likes KoK and I figured most of it was just systemless descriptionation.

pfffff ... anyway. I got to the aquatic dragon. not even a quarter of the way yet.

I'm in total agreement with you CharlieRock, what with the Green Ronin sale and Kenzer's big sale, I've got a stack of new books to go through.

I recently picked up Dangerous Denizens, are the conversions that involved? I'm planning on using stuff from it in my C&C Campaign.

Later,

Brutorz Bill

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:43 pm
by Jason Vey
No, they're really not. Ignore skills and feats, carry special abilities over wholesale, decide if Primes are Mental, Physical, or Both, and make BtH equal to the creature's Hit Dice.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm
by Treebore
I'm pretty sure converting 4E to C&C will be about as easy as 3E is.

As for supporting 4e? I want to, mostly via Goodman Games, Paizo, and Necromancer. Even WOTC adventures, if they sound good.

Now I am thinking of just forgetting about 4E pretty much altogether, spend my gaming money on C&C/LA, Green Ronin's True 20 and Mutants and Masterminds, Mongoose Traveller, Fat Dragon Games 3D terrain stuff, and similiar gaming goodness.

Don't know though, Paizo's Pathfinder series has started off with a very superior adventure series, and if this is the caliber they are going to try and maintain, I am going to have to support at least Pathfinder.

Plus I want Tegal Manor when it finally comes out. So I am going to just have to figure it out as it goes.
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:42 pm
by serleran
If the "previews" are an indication, conversion will actually be easier.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:59 pm
by DangerDwarf
Treebore wrote:
Don't know though, Paizo's Pathfinder series has started off with a very superior adventure series, and if this is the caliber they are going to try and maintain, I am going to have to support at least Pathfinder.

Yeah, I'm greatly enjoying both the Pathfinder and Game Mastery lines.

My only complaint is that with the Pathfinder subscription, Gamemastery subscription and likely now the Chronicles subscription, Paizo is going to eat a good chunk of my monthly gaming budget.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:29 pm
by Omote
I can't wait for 4E to get so here that I will never play it. Not trying to be a hater, but it's ain't my cup of tea. However, if good companies like Necromancer Games indeed make good mods and such for fourrrrrttth *yawns* edition, then I'll probably pick up a few bits and pieces.

-O
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:49 pm
by CharlieRock
Brutorz Bill wrote:
I'm in total agreement with you CharlieRock, what with the Green Ronin sale and Kenzer's big sale, I've got a stack of new books to go through.

I recently picked up Dangerous Denizens, are the conversions that involved? I'm planning on using stuff from it in my C&C Campaign.

Later,

Brutorz Bill

It's not that they are overly involved. It's that there are somewhere around 120+ from Dangerous Denizens (and I can probably look forward to doing another module over very soon). That and converting a module over last week and I'm tired. No more converting this week. Done.
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Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:28 am
by pawndream
*Casts Raise Dead Thread*

Per BreakDaddy's command, I scoured the forum for a fun thread to resurrect, and settled on this one :)

This is interesting to me, because I came to C&C, through complete burnout on running 4e.

So, what do I borrow from 4e?

1. I use the core 4e deities for my homebrew game: it's a serviceable pantheon with some of the iconic deities/demi-powers represented.

2. I use a highly altered form of 4e's Action Points (i.e., can be used minor healing surges d4+1 hp's on self or other, OR bonus d6 on d20 dice rolls, OR to cast additional spells).

3. I have borrowed some of the fluff and locations from the default Nentir Vale setting and placed them in my homebrew campaign

4. The advice in the DMG is pretty solid.

That's really about it though, as far as what I borrow.

So, let's talk, what if anything did you guys borrow from 4e to incorporate into your C&C game?

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:49 am
by Treebore
My Eldritch/Divine Blasts are an idea stolen from 4E.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:54 pm
by Arduin
pawndream wrote:
So, what do I borrow from 4e?
When instructing junior execs I borrow from it as an example of how to hand your competition the top product spot on a silver platter.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:44 pm
by DMSamuel
haha, funny.

To be honest, 4e did have many good things about it - but they were good things compared to 3.x, not compared to the more free-style 1e and BECMI versions of D&D. That is, the lessons learned from 4e apply to 3.x games, not games that run like previous editions (C&C, for example).

In terms of some interesting story locations and ideas, and maps, especially maps, I rob 4e for that all the time. But I don't port any of the rules into my C&C game, it is unnecessary.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:49 pm
by serleran
I do not know much about 4th edition, but I think adventure ideas can easily be stolen as can the obvious physical references like maps.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:52 pm
by Arduin
serleran wrote:I do not know much about 4th edition, .
Think of it as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_% ... eo_game%29 ported to be played as a table top P&P game. That was the basic aim of the designers and they actually pulled it off about as well as could be done.

That's why in the 1st release there weren't utility spells and the like. Not something that fit with a video game paradigm...

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:19 pm
by DMSamuel
4e had some very specific design goals - a few that they were successful with:
1) Making each PC powerful at 1st level
2) Give each class interesting and powerful things to do at every level... this was aimed at removing the traditional fighter = good / mage = weak at 1st level coupled to fighter = ineffective against high level mage / mage = super powerful at high level imbalance.
3) Change the way healing works such that there are many opportunities to heal oneself therefore negating the necessity of a healing-focused character
4) Change the way healing works such that the 5-minute-workday is removed from gameplay
5) Provide easy to interpret, solid combat rules based on a 1" grid
6) Provide tools for the DM to easily create set-piece encounters
7) Provide tools for the player to create a PC easily

They were successful at those, but at a price. Their Successful implementation of 1 and 2 left all of the classes feeling the same, which would not be a problem if they also encouraged roleplaying to differentiate PCs, but they didn't, so no matter what class/race/powers you chose, everyone felt the same (basically). Successful implementation of 3 and 4 took away the danger of adventuring and the game lost too much of the old D&D feel and gained a video-game feel.

One of the design goals was to implement a "social combat" type of system wherein the players and DM could use dice-rolling to adjudicate and play out what would traditionally be purely role-playing situations. This was coupled with a greatly reduced skill list (no more giant skill trees and rank system like in 3.x). While it sounded like a great idea, the focus on combat in the core PHB and the very poor way that they presented the "social combat" system, which was to be known as "skill challenges," led to this aspect being very unsuccessful. This was meant to address the "My PC has an 18 CHA, but in real life I can't roleplay my way out of a paper bag" scenario by having a system in which a mismatch between PC skills and player skills was mediated. It was also meant to reduce the occasions where the strong guys always rolled the endurance check in the wilderness situation by creating scenes where every PC had to succeed at some sort of skill check for the entire team to succeed at the skill challenge. At its heart, the idea was a good one and addressed problems with modern games and gamers, but the implementation was crap, so the idea of the skill challenge was unsuccessful.

There were certain constraints upon the designers and they led to a homogenized feeling game. Word on the street is that Rob Heinsoo (4e developer) and Jonathan Tweet (3e developer) created 13th Age as the game that 4e should have been, and 13th Age apparently matches the original vision of the 4e lead designers.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:35 pm
by Arduin
DMSamuel wrote: There were certain constraints upon the designers and they led to a homogenized feeling game. Word on the street is that Rob Heinsoo (4e developer) and Jonathan Tweet (3e developer) created 13th Age as the game that 4e should have been, and 13th Age apparently matches the original vision of the 4e lead designers.
If you search this board you will find a link to an interview with whoever the chief designer was stating that the goal was to create a Table Top P&P RPG version of a video game. So as to bring in that demographic as a paid customer. Thus, meeting the insanely high revenue goals set for the D&D line by Hasbro executives.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:53 pm
by DMSamuel
Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote: There were certain constraints upon the designers and they led to a homogenized feeling game. Word on the street is that Rob Heinsoo (4e developer) and Jonathan Tweet (3e developer) created 13th Age as the game that 4e should have been, and 13th Age apparently matches the original vision of the 4e lead designers.
If you search this board you will find a link to an interview with whoever the chief designer was stating that the goal was to create a Table Top P&P RPG version of a video game. So as to bring in that demographic as a paid customer. Thus, meeting the insanely high revenue goals set for the D&D line by Hasbro executives.
Yes, I've seen that quote elsewhere - those are the constraints I mentioned.

The funny thing is, from a business perspective it sounds like a fantastic way to meet the unrealistic demand of a 50mil dollar product line - if WoW is getting 14 millions subscribers, D&D should be able to tap into at least a small percentage of that, right? And if they each pay a 7 dollar a month subscription to DDi, then we meet our goal...

But in reality, the question they should have been asking is, "Do MMO and video game players want to play a tabletop RPG?" The answer, I think they learned, is NO. The tabletop experience is a completely different entity in feel, in experience, and in intent. They are two entirely different beasts and making an RPG emulate a video game will satisfy no-one.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:00 pm
by Arduin
DMSamuel wrote:
Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote: There were certain constraints upon the designers and they led to a homogenized feeling game. Word on the street is that Rob Heinsoo (4e developer) and Jonathan Tweet (3e developer) created 13th Age as the game that 4e should have been, and 13th Age apparently matches the original vision of the 4e lead designers.
If you search this board you will find a link to an interview with whoever the chief designer was stating that the goal was to create a Table Top P&P RPG version of a video game. So as to bring in that demographic as a paid customer. Thus, meeting the insanely high revenue goals set for the D&D line by Hasbro executives.
Yes, I've seen that quote elsewhere - those are the constraints I mentioned.

The funny thing is, from a business perspective it sounds like a fantastic way to meet the unrealistic demand of a 50mil dollar product line - if WoW is getting 14 millions subscribers, D&D should be able to tap into at least a small percentage of that, right? And if they each pay a 7 dollar a month subscription to DDi, then we meet our goal...

But in reality, the question they should have been asking is, "Do MMO and video game players want to play a tabletop RPG?" The answer, I think they learned, is NO. The tabletop experience is a completely different entity in feel, in experience, and in intent. They are two entirely different beasts and making an RPG emulate a video game will satisfy no-one.
I agree completely. Kudo's to the developers for trying to comply.

Eventually the D&D brand will go away as a force. The main reason being that it is owned and controlled by a huge corp where the execs concerned know nothing about RPG's and their customers.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:05 pm
by Warunsun
Arduin wrote:Eventually the D&D brand will go away as a force. The main reason being that it is owned and controlled by a huge corp where the execs concerned know nothing about RPG's and their customers.
The D&D brand is not going away. In fact, as an interested Castles & Crusades gamer you don't want it to go away. All role-playing games and especially D&D clones like C&C and Pathfinder thrive on the continued success of the D&D brand and its rich history and connections to fantasy video games as well. It can be argued that Wizards of the Coast and even Hasbro doesn't make the best decisions for their current table-top versions of D&D. However, the influence of D&D especially on gaming is very important. New players don't go to the game store to buy Castles & Crusades or Pathfinder; they go there to find out about Dungeons & Dragons or perhaps Magic: The Gathering. Once they are in the store then anything can happen!

As far as using D&D I am currently running two Castles & Crusades campaigns. One is using source materials from AD&D Second Edition Forgotten Realms. The other is based on the planer setup and cosmology of D&D Fourth Edition: They are spelljamming on the Astral Sea. The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are two of the best developments for D&D cosmology ever and can work just fine alongside the Great Wheel. The Astral Plane just sucked before 4E. So gray and boring. We liked SpellJammer back in 2E but honestly the Phlogiston made no sense and the crystal spheres and outer space components were cool but wonky. Spelljamming on the Astral sea is so much more interesting and fits D&D better.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:51 pm
by DMSamuel
I do like the 4e astral sea as well. I once had the party in a situation where they had to pay a fee to get passage across the astral sea, much like paying Charon to cross the River Styx. They weren't quite powerful enough to take over a ship, but they found out a ton of good information from the astral pirates. They then discovered an Astral soul spire that was being siphoned and causing all sorts of disturbances. Good stuff made possible by the 4e Astral plane.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:10 pm
by Arduin
Warunsun wrote:
Arduin wrote:Eventually the D&D brand will go away as a force. The main reason being that it is owned and controlled by a huge corp where the execs concerned know nothing about RPG's and their customers.
The D&D brand is not going away.
As a force in RPGs, eventually it will. It's the nature of business. It will exist. It just won't be a determining factor. D&D brand hasn't carried the market for years.

Most people who currently play RPG's are too young to have a "special place in their heart" for D&D. To those today and in the future who come to be RPG players, D&D brand has the same significance as GM does to new car buyers. The days of "What's good for GM is good for the country and what's good for the country is good for GM." are L O N G gone...

Study history of business/brands and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:41 pm
by TheMetal1
GameOgre wrote: What sort of neat things can I steal? Will the adventures cross over to C&C as easy as the rest?
pawndream wrote:So, let's talk, what if anything did you guys borrow from 4e to incorporate into your C&C game?
Well, I was a hold out for a long time on getting anything 4e. It wasn't until they released they did a midway 4e reboot with the Essentials line that I decided to give it a fair shake. Not sure if the Dark Sun stuff came out before that but I picked up that stuff(Setting, Modules/adventures, Beastiery) and suprisingly it went out of print fast without any reprints/support. With the Essentials Box Set, the smaller books I actually ran a few games (just the box set) and it was pretty good (albeit at low-level). I picked up Keep on the Shadowfell, and 2 other follow on adventures. Threats to the Netir Valley and the Shadow realm set were good. Really like their DM and Monster set. The tile sets were/are very good as well, both the big boxes and the $10 sets like Icewind Dale.

Really all I've borrowed or incorporated is the tiles/pawns and a map or two. I use them with Paizo stuff or on their own. A bit slower reveal, but I constructed a darn good TOEE Moathouse with all the stuff. I initially really liked their tokens and paper maps, until I started with paizo's flip maps and pawns. Still have them and use them as overflow for big battles of goblins, etc.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:57 pm
by Arduin
TheMetal1 wrote:Not sure if the Dark Sun stuff came out before that but I picked up that stuff(Setting, Modules/adventures, Beastiery) and suprisingly it went out of print fast without any reprints/support.
Dark Sun is from 2nd Edition product line...

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:59 pm
by DMSamuel
Arduin wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote:Not sure if the Dark Sun stuff came out before that but I picked up that stuff(Setting, Modules/adventures, Beastiery) and suprisingly it went out of print fast without any reprints/support.
Dark Sun is from 2nd Edition product line...
They released a Dark Sun campaign setting guide, bestiary/creature catalog, and 2 adventure modules for 4e.

They were released 1 month before the essentials line.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:10 pm
by Arduin
DMSamuel wrote:
Arduin wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote:Not sure if the Dark Sun stuff came out before that but I picked up that stuff(Setting, Modules/adventures, Beastiery) and suprisingly it went out of print fast without any reprints/support.
Dark Sun is from 2nd Edition product line...
They released a Dark Sun campaign setting guide, bestiary/creature catalog, and 2 adventure modules for 4e.

They were released 1 month before the essentials line.
I'm talking about the D&D setting NOT when it was converted to 4e system. :shock:

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:31 pm
by Warunsun
Arduin wrote:I'm talking about the D&D setting NOT when it was converted to 4e system.
They did some minor tweaks to the setting that I considered favorable in the 4e campaign books. Originally in 2E they made some mistakes and made the original boxed set obsolete very quickly. This time around they designed it so those earth shaking events were up to the Dungeon Master to implement if he wanted to but incorporated bits of it at the start.

Strange someone would bring up Dark Sun because it is the one campaign I would definitely choose to run with D&D Fourth Edition rules. It fit like a glove.

Re: I cant wait for 4E to get here

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:59 pm
by Arduin
Warunsun wrote: Originally in 2E they made some mistakes and made the original boxed set obsolete very quickly.
Wow, all those thousands of people who played for a couple decades never knew I guess. Good thing no one told them. :lol:

Converting 2E Dark Sun to 3E & OSR games is far, FAR, FAR easier than going from 4E edition to 3.x, OSR, etc.