C&C LOTR / Middle-Earth, it's just that good...

C&C discussion. Fantasy roleplaying.
New products, general questions, the rules, laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

C&C LOTR / Middle-Earth, it's just that good...

Post by Omote »

Is it just me or is the LOTR / Middle Earth setting just perfect with C&C?

I know topics like this have be discussed at great length before, but I just thought that I'd say this again.

The C&C RANGER is exactly how I picture the Rangers of the North in Middle-Earth. Same could be said with the Fighter and even the Barbarian.

Simply remove the Monk, Paladin, Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Illusionist and you have the core of the classes available in LOTR C&C.

Since C&C is so easy to adapt new rules to, it would be easy to come up with a "class" (or race) that a wizard could be. Possibly add a commoner class.

I ran a Middle-Earth game back with Basic D&D and that worked well enough, but I think C&C would work infinitely better. I've been thinking a great deal about running a short campaign or a few adventures in Middle-Earth, but using C&C.

Has anybody else come up with any ideas for C&C and Middle-Earth? I would like to see what others have done.

...........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Re: C&C LOTR / Middle-Earth, it's just that good...

Post by gideon_thorne »

Quote:
The C&C RANGER is exactly how I picture the Rangers of the North in Middle-Earth. Same could be said with the Fighter and even the Barbarian.

Id extend the herbalism ability beyond poison.
Quote:
Simply remove the Monk, Paladin, Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Illusionist and you have the core of the classes available in LOTR C&C.

I can understand removing the monk and maybe the paladin. Although I can make cases for em out of the Silmarilion, but I would argue that Radigast is a Druid. Gandalf certainly uses Illusion spells at times. As do many of the darker critters from various sections of the LOTR's novels.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Post by Treebore »

MERP and the new LotR by Decipher has wizards get pretty dang powerful.

Just Gandalf and the others only use spells when nothing else would do the job.

So if I was to use C&C for a LotR type campaign I would keep the classes and just up the Wizard bth to the same as the Ranger and give him d6 HP, then up his xp requirements by

+500 at first level

+1000 at second

+1500 at third, and so on.

I would have to re-read a lot before I would make any suggestions about Druids, but Radaghast is definitely a druidic type.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Treebore wrote:
I would have to re-read a lot before I would make any suggestions about Druids, but Radaghast is definitely a druidic type.

And Tom Bombadil ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Dee

Post by Dee »

Quote:
Simply remove the Monk, Paladin, Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Illusionist and you have the core of the classes available in LOTR C&C.

It would be difficult, but not impossible.
Remove ANYTHING that revolves around gods; period.

A "Cleric" of Morgoth/Sauron may be possible but with very limited results.

Morgoth dispersed his innate power into the earth (gold especially), so these "clerics" would have more power over earth-magic than anything else as functional spells.

I would remove Wizards & Druids altogether.

Bards are magic-users of song (weavers of Fate; past/present/future); e.g. Finrod (where song itself would have more actual magic qualities in Middle-earth than anything else really).

Middle-earth was created from the music of Eru that the Ainur sang.

Even Tom Bombadil used sing-song as his "magic".

Illusionists could be relabelled Sorcerers (or even Conjurers) [since many of the spells are similar and function well enough to simulate a magician] and left as envoys of the Valar or disciple of Sauron (one of his most enticing offerings to mortals) - depending on Sorcerer or Conjurer label, but certainly not a "Core class" available to a PC.

The rest on your list would not normally be available as "Core classes", but may be obtained as a "prestige-class" in the truest sense of the meaning and only acquired in the rarest of cases.

I would suggest creating the "prestige-class" Arcane Craftsman as the method of creating magical devices (swords, armor, rings, etc.) but a class that is no-longer available in the 3rd Age (making the few available Magical items extremely precious).

The Paladin (if removed of God-inspired abilities) could serve in a limited capacity (e.g. Aragorn or Elrond as a lay-healer) and is another "prestige-class"; possibly as a racial attribute of Numenoreans. Elrond is the exception here, but then his twin brother WAS the first Numenorean king.

Tom Bombadil would be a representation of an Earth-Bard/Cleric possibly (and would require a character write-up and not a class write-up).

He does turn the Barrow-wights, but then he is a very special case and may in fact be extremely unique.

"Druid" itself is a bit more open to debate (although I would still recommend removal altogether). Since Elves are predisposed to their earth-connection as part of their heritage (waking up the Ents and other very Druidic things) a possibly simple addition to racial write-up may solve that issue.

Face it, magic per se is not a methodology Middle-earth is susceptible to unless it is on a very unique basis; usually involving some Ainu. The highly skilled craftsman who can capture some earth-magic and embed it into a product of the earth is about as good as it gets for real mortal "magic" unless you follow the "dark-side" or sing (which would be very much in keeping with the Tolkien basis).

Dragonhelm
Red Cap
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Dragonhelm »

I'm just tickled pink that C&C's halfling has hairy feet. Hobbits rule. 8)

User avatar
Combat_Kyle
Ulthal
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: St. Paul, MN
Contact:

Post by Combat_Kyle »

Dragonhelm wrote:
I'm just tickled pink that C&C's halfling has hairy feet. Hobbits rule. 8)

Especially when they are in the belly of a dragon.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: C&C LOTR / Middle-Earth, it's just that good...

Post by Omote »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I can understand removing the monk and maybe the paladin. Although I can make cases for em out of the Silmarilion, but I would argue that Radigast is a Druid. Gandalf certainly uses Illusion spells at times. As do many of the darker critters from various sections of the LOTR's novels.

Good point on Rahigast, however I think he would be more then just a druid, possibly his "druidness" is a form of Wizardry. Just like Galdalf and his illusion spells, he could be another form of Wizard.

The levels if Wizard in Middle-Earth (Brown, Grey, White) could also be linked to various levels of Wizardry. Gandalf may have been a Brown wizard at some point where maybe he picked up druid-like abilities, or some such line of thinking.

The wizard could be a complete Race/Class all tied together, being very powerful (lots of abilities at 1st level?) but requiring large amounts of EP to progress.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the wizards Maiar? However, each is a "master" of a different aspect, with the White being the "closest" to Eru? In that case, it would seem that no one can play one, as they would, perforce, be NPCs.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

serleran wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the wizards Maiar? However, each is a "master" of a different aspect, with the White being the "closest" to Eru? In that case, it would seem that no one can play one, as they would, perforce, be NPCs.

Yup. They were angelic like beings. There were a number of 'sorcerors' around though. One notable one being "The Sorceror King of Agamar (I think thats the spelling?) who later became the king of the Black Riders.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Post by Omote »

serleran wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the wizards Maiar? However, each is a "master" of a different aspect, with the White being the "closest" to Eru? In that case, it would seem that no one can play one, as they would, perforce, be NPCs.

I beleive all Wizards are either Maiar, or Valar. Although I admit my Middle-Earth knowledge is not as deep as it probably should be. Wizards should probably remain the domain of NPCs in whatever form they take. For playability reasons, I think having a Wizard race/class would be an OK route to take, at least in my mind.

.............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Zudrak
Lore Drake
Posts: 1379
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Audubon, NJ

Post by Zudrak »

The Encyclopedia of Arda is a great reference for LotR fans (such as myself!).
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/istari.html

I would definitely treat all Istari (Wizards) strictly as quasi- or demi-deities and under the demesne of the CK as NPC's. Also, I imagine (via Peter's post) that the rangers and elves would take the place of clerics for healing purposes.

BTW, I would use Gollum as a monk, if he still exists in your campaign. Those hands were deadly! (half-joking)

I played MERP a few times when I was a kid. I miss that system, but I'll be darned if I can remember how it was played at all. Good luck with the LotR campaign, Omote. I might try something like that down the road someday.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

MERP is a percentage system, with some interesting "flaws," such as the uruk-hai gaining experience based on how much damage they took. Pretty cool, overall, but very much like Rolemaster, to which it is compatible.

User avatar
DangerDwarf
Maukling
Posts: 5284
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 am
Location: East Texas

Post by DangerDwarf »

Quote:
I would argue that Radigast is a Druid.

He was statted as a druid in MERP.

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Post by Omote »

Zudrak wrote:
Good luck with the LotR campaign, Omote. I might try something like that down the road someday.

Thank you Zu. I have been wanting to run a true, GOOD Middle-Earth campaign for some time. My original campaign with Basic D&D ended up being more like a traditional D&D campaign, then Middle-Earth. My idea is to run in Middle-Earth while being very, very setting "intense." By that I mean as close to the books as possible in the feel of the setting, while at the same time being very character driven ~ and yet retain playability. I think C&C would help with that, as opposed to MERP or Decipher's LOTR RPG.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

Its certainly possible to allow "sorcerer" type casters, but retain the mystique of being a "wizard." The true wizards, like Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and whatnot would be of a race/class that is relegated to NPC status, simply because they are more plot devices than playable characters. However, the standard "sorcerer" could cover illusions, to a limited form, perhaps, some charm spells... basically, the wizard class presented in the PHB, but with a modified spell list, perhaps with some spells moving around in level. The others, those "true wizards" would probably be focused on a specific type of magic, such as Radagast having druidic spells and abilities, but could also do other effects; each would need to be defined as to what theyr limits are, with color mattering more than level or attribute.

Oh well... I'm the last guy to do this, seeing as I've never read Tolkien's works... heh.

Dee

Post by Dee »

Quote:
My idea is to run in Middle-Earth while being very, very setting "intense." By that I mean as close to the books as possible in the feel of the setting, while at the same time being very character driven ~ and yet retain playability. I think C&C would help with that, as opposed to MERP or Decipher's LOTR RPG.

MERP is great for mining ideas on a regular D&D-type level, and maybe expanding locale knowledge and some racial stuff. Stay away from half-elves, Umli and other MERP racial focal-points (and a few of their other inventions).

Decipher's RPG captures the film essence very well, with the concession of magic use for players and is much better at capturing a true Middle-earth game than MERP.

Book-wise, you'd have to sacrifice magic (arcane and divine) as a player character option almost completely; unless you were playing a very ancient elf or somesuch.

If you need any help on Middle-earth points I'd be happy to help.

I've given a few "facts" already for you, some gleaned from the History of Middle-earth series including the true nature of Middle-earth "magic".

I knows my Tolkien, more than is probably healthy.

I've often thought that with the huge amount of LOTR and Silmarillion history ported over into Erde that you could possibly create a buffet there of mish-mashing both and taking only the best parts (so as to be neither fully one or the other) to make a more playable Middle-earthian game - kind of a "what if..." which is what I think Erde really was, to a point.

rabindranath72

Post by rabindranath72 »

I too am (slowly) working on a C&C adaptation of Middle-Earth. I liked very much the ideas behind the Decipher game, but not how the game works (too much like 3e).

How appropriate are spellcasters in a Middle-Earth campaign? In some of Tolkien scripts there are hints of sorceries available to non-Wizards, for example the Mouth of Sauron.

So, I am considering as the only spellcasting class available to PCs the wizard, who can however access all types of spells in the PHB (wizard, cleric, illusionist, druid) depending on the background of the caster. Not all spells are available, obviously; just the ones which are appropriate to the setting.

"True Wizards", like Gandalf, Saruman etc. are dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and their power is definitely out of reach for PCs.

As soon as I have something ready, I will post it here.

Cheers,

Antonio

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Post by Omote »

rabindranath72 wrote:
As soon as I have something ready, I will post it here.

Thanks Antonio. I'd like to see how others work the C&C system into the Middle-Earth setting.

........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

Maliki
Lore Drake
Posts: 1523
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Maliki »

Sounds like a worthy undertaking, I agree C&C seems to be a good fit for a Middle Earth campaign. Good luck with the project.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

Colin Chapman

Post by Colin Chapman »

Middle Earth roleplaying, eh? A download VERY useful for anyone interested in rpgs set in Middle Earth:
http://sauron.misled.us/index.php?name= ... tit&lid=19

cheers!

Colin

rabindranath72

Post by rabindranath72 »

Colin Chapman wrote:
Middle Earth roleplaying, eh? A download VERY useful for anyone interested in rpgs set in Middle Earth:
http://sauron.misled.us/index.php?name= ... tit&lid=19

cheers!

Colin

Thank you! Very interesting!

Dee

Post by Dee »

Colin, have you ever gotten a chance to look at the latter releases for LOTR RPG?

Namely Helm's Deep and the PDF only releases Isengard and Paths of the Wise?

I know you had moved on before they were released.

The Battle Web Mass Combat system seems fairly well done for simple and cinematic warfare using tactical maneuvers.

Colin Chapman

Post by Colin Chapman »

Dee wrote:
Colin, have you ever gotten a chance to look at the latter releases for LOTR RPG?

Namely Helm's Deep and the PDF only releases Isengard and Paths of the Wise?

I know you had moved on before they were released.

The Battle Web Mass Combat system seems fairly well done for simple and cinematic warfare using tactical maneuvers.

Nope, never looked at 'em. Decipher's LotR RPG had an awful lot of promise, but I felt it started out slightly shakily, and rather than recovering, then rapidly slid downhill through what I considered bad mismanagement at the time, as well as some truly shocking editing. Given what happened to the game in the end, it turns out that my gut instincts were largely correct, unfortunately.

The free Hinterlands rpg was a better effort, imo, even as imcomplete as it currently is.

cheers!

Colin

Dee

Post by Dee »

Quote:
Nope, never looked at 'em.

Maybe you should find someone who has a copy and check it out; Paths especially.
Quote:
Decipher's LotR RPG had an awful lot of promise, but I felt it started out slightly shakily, and rather than recovering, then rapidly slid downhill through what I considered bad mismanagement at the time, as well as some truly shocking editing.

Heh. Bad editing is part & parcel of RPGs.

The mismanagement part... no question.

PDF releases came too little and too late to save it.

Those games should have been out-sourced as soon as it was understood that unrealized expectations and production problems were being encountered.

Trek suffered more from the editing than LOTR did IMO.

If you were curious to check them out, I would suggest Helm's Deep for the Mass Combat system and Paths of the Wise for the expanded magic - essential for your earlier age campaigns. Isengard is a soucebook on, well... Isengard, and has no real value to a ME campaign not centered on Isengard other than some advancements for Orcs and whatnot.
Quote:
Given what happened to the game in the end, it turns out that my gut instincts were largely correct, unfortunately.

This is one system that would have been blessed with a basic core open system (and 3rd party products if possible), especially considering Trek used much of the same mechanics. It's still a very good cinematic system that is fairly rules-lite and one I prefer over d20.
Quote:
The free Hinterlands rpg was a better effort, imo, even as imcomplete as it currently is.

I've looked at it, and found it not as good.

Decipher has a licensing problem that Hinterlands does not: the ability to draw on earlier history. This is not necessarily a good thing to have as an ability as it actually restricts your game. I prefer my "Silmarillion" history to be a bit more vague, as given in LOTR rather than straight-jacketed by adhering to postumous publishings, but that's just me I suppose.

Maliki
Lore Drake
Posts: 1523
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Maliki »

Colin Chapman wrote:
Middle Earth roleplaying, eh? A download VERY useful for anyone interested in rpgs set in Middle Earth:
http://sauron.misled.us/index.php?name= ... tit&lid=19

cheers!

Colin

Thats a good link, for any fantasy rpg, names always give me fits, thanks.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

Useful link. I believe I'll make an insert of it for the GFW series book.

User avatar
Tadhg
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10878
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Post by Tadhg »

Colin Chapman wrote:
Middle Earth roleplaying, eh? A download VERY useful for anyone interested in rpgs set in Middle Earth:
http://sauron.misled.us/index.php?name= ... tit&lid=19

cheers!

Colin

Thanks. A great compilation of name possibilities. 8)
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Lord Tadhg - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Ardmore

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

rabindranath72

Post by rabindranath72 »

What is this "Hinterlands" free RPG? I did a google search, but I could not find anything.

Post Reply