Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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slimykuotoan
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Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by slimykuotoan »

Wizards of the Coast hereby reserves the right to inact:

(As) this now serves as official notice under article 3(b):

As per Open Game Licence:

(b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted...

By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License:

Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.

Cease and all activities which impinge upon said act.

Wouldn't that be terrible?

I'm surprised that Troll Lords was able to 'rekindle the flame' in the way that it did.

ie. Using d20 content, combined with their own character creation rules/modifications, etc.

How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

This isn't intended to be a WOTC bashing thread; I'm just curious as to how it was, that you came to make the step to C&C...
For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Fizz »

slimykuotoan wrote:
ie. Using d20 content, combined with their own character creation rules/modifications, etc.

Well, it's not d20 content really. The SIEGE engine uses a d20 die, but there are sufficient differences that there would be no intellectual property infringements. I mean, even WotC can't claim a d20 as their own intellectual property.
Quote:
How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

I'm not sure if disgruntled is the right word for me, but certainly unsatisfied. IMO, D&D 3 became the roleplaying version of Magic the Gathering. It became more about the rules and combat than about an adventuring story. And my experiences at cons over the last couple years have confirmed that. There are too many rules with too little payoff. 2 hours for a single round of combat is not what i want to do.

I didn't arrive at this conclusion over night. It took much soul searching to decide what kind of game i wanted to play, and what gave me the most flexibility for desired tweaks and house rules. I decided i wanted to focus on the adventure and story and not the minutia of a giant ruleset.
Quote:
This isn't intended to be a WOTC bashing thread; I'm just curious as to how it was, that you came to make the step to C&C...

Aawww....
-Fizz

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Post by serleran »

The Trolls did not like writing or designing for d20, for a variety of reasons, one of which was an overcomplexity of rules and "fatness" of statblocks. So, they decided to use something similar to what they already had before d20 existed, but "improve" it, and thereby give them something to let them enjoy the gaming industry again. Hence, C&C.

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Post by Nifelhein »

It is not d20, which has its own license, it is based on the SRD, which is the same system, but gives you no right to use the D20 logo, there are other books out there that did the same, basically you are not attracting a market when you do so.

I started to move away from D20 when I was spending more time preparing an encounter than the story of the game, when a single battle took half of a session and we like to have combats, but then, we have little time to play.

And because I was sick of having to go combo mode to make a single character effective.
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Dragonhelm »

slimykuotoan wrote:
Cease and all activities which impinge upon said act.

Wouldn't that be terrible?

*throws rotten fruit*

Man, you gave me a scare for a second! I read this thread title and nearly had a heart attack!
Quote:
How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

Sorta, kinda...

I'm not certain I'd say I was disgruntled so much as "not wholly satisfied."

I'm a firm believer in the KISS theory: Keep It Simple, Stupid. d20 is, in concept, a good idea, but I think they went too far. Stat blocks that take up a page are nuts. Three types of AC is overdoing it. Damage reduction...well, you get the idea. Don't even get me started on critical threats and the like. Blech.

So along comes C&C, which has the basics of the d20 mechanic, but not to the Nth degree. It's simple, elegant. More importantly, I look at it thinking I can import materials from all editions of the game. Above all, it felt like what D&D should be to me.

Yes, folks, halflings have hairy feet.
Now, this isn't to say I wouldn't use d20 with my C&C game. I could easily import various elements. I just wouldn't use d20 as a whole.

(Though I have to admit to liking elements of True20 as well.)
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Jason Vey »

slimykuotoan wrote:
I'm surprised that Troll Lords was able to 'rekindle the flame' in the way that it did.

ie. Using d20 content, combined with their own character creation rules/modifications, etc.

As has been said, there is nothing in the OGL forbidding the creation or printing of character creation or advancement rules. That clause is in the d20 System License, which only applies if the publisher carries the d20 logo. Since C&C doesn't carry the d20 logo, they're in the clear.

It's true that standard d20 char gen rules as specifically written in the D&D Player's Handbook are Product Identity. However, those same rules have been rephrased and added to the catalogue of Open Content by Mongoose, in their Pocket Player's Handbook.
Quote:
How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

This isn't intended to be a WOTC bashing thread; I'm just curious as to how it was, that you came to make the step to C&C...

Not so much because I was disgruntled with D&D...though she and I have had our falling outs. We break up, then get back together, then break up again...like a truly dysfunctional couple.

No, what drew me to C&C was the promise that it was like AD&D first edition, with all the wrinkles ironed out. It lived up to that promise in spades.

See, I don't find C&C superior or comparable to D&D. I find it different. I play D&D 3.5 for one kind of play experience, and C&C for another. Just as I'd still play AD&D 1 or 2E, for a different kind of play experience. They're just very different games.

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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by gideon_thorne »

slimykuotoan wrote:
I'm surprised that Troll Lords was able to 'rekindle the flame' in the way that it did.

.

Well..

In short 1) TLG is not using any of WOTC's product identity and 2) C&C is an OGL game not a d20 game.

If you want a full understanding of the differences I recomend either contacting Clark Peterson of Necromancer games or Mac Golden of TLG and having them give you a run down. Cause I can't explain it as well as either of them can.^_^

Suffice it to say that C&C's development was closely monitored by WOTC and if they would have had a problem they would have said so by now.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

You sir, owe me for new underwear.

See my sig for thoughts on WOTC and their bastard version of D&D.
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Omote »

slimykuotoan wrote:
How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

I'm not, really. I never liked 3E from the get go. Too many rules, too much BS. However, it was the ultra-hot game so I played, and played, and played. Not only did I not like 3E that much, it started grating on me more and more. That's when I stumbled on the TLG guys in the DF forums when C&C was still being developed. I watched the development for about a year because the discussions about it were the kind of game I was looking for. Simple, yet included a few of the rules from 3e that I liked. With the release of the White Box, I was totally hooked... totally!

I always like expanding my role-play experience, but with C&C I found my "zen"-game.

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Post by Inkpot »

Well, I came to C&C first and foremost because of Erde. But being disgruntled/dissatisfied with what D&D has become would be a very, very close second. Any time your character sheet fills more than a single, double-sided sheet of paper (character bio doesn't count, of course), you've embraced the Dark Side, in my not-so-humble opinion.
You should see the people playing D&D at my local game shop. It takes each of them a half hour (or more) to say what they're going to do during their turn. They have about fifteen splatbooks (each) to go through, research a bazillion skills and feats, shake the magic 8-ball, say a mantra.....and then they get around to doing something with their character.

This is defined as fun in some circles. Count me out, chief. C&C for the win.
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Keolander »

Dragonhelm wrote:
*throws rotten fruit*

Man, you gave me a scare for a second! I read this thread title and nearly had a heart attack!

Same here. Crikey, I was about to go over to WotC's boards and tell them off.
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by Zudrak »

Keolander wrote:
Same here. Crikey, I was about to go over to WotC's boards and tell them off.

Slimykuotoan Evocative Post Count: 2
Between this thread and the one entitled "Picked up C&C -very disappointed...", you are making yourself one wicked reputation, SKT.
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Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

Seriously, Slimykuotoan is living up to his name!

I seem to recall reading that the OGL cannot be closed, according to its very rules, but I could be wrong on that.

And, yeah, C&C doesn't infringe on that which WotC has designated its own IP. Which is why there are no mindflayers and the like...

And Inkpot, C&C most definitely for "teh" win.

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Post by Gnostic Gnoll »

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
I seem to recall reading that the OGL cannot be closed, according to its very rules, but I could be wrong on that.

Yeah, after the finalization of the SRD, the cat is pretty much out of the bag. The most WotC can do is buy a new cat, which they might do when 4E comes out. But that's only for the OGL. They have a lot more control over the d20 System License, but that isn't so much of an issue these days due to the OGL derivations like C&C and True20.

Not that WotC has been very forthcoming with bolstering the SRD through their new products, which is one of the many reasons I no longer like them and choose not to give them my money. I'm still as fine with the d20 System as I ever was, although I hardly think it's perfect. I just find it difficult to create new things and adapt older things under that system, since there are too many variables to consider. Some people have that knack--I don't. So unless I choose to play nothing but Arcana Unearthed, which does tend to spark my creativity-to-rules fire, I find myself at an impasse. And while AU is plenty fun, I crave other things from time to time. C&C is simple enough that I can strip out or modify the bits I don't like, and stick in ones I do.

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Post by Treebore »

Like I said, as Grimaryl Atyar, over on Dragonsfoot. I was burned out on 3E. The fun crushed so thoroughly I was considering stopping playing D&D completely.

Fortunately, due to my interest in TLG because of their partnership with Necromancer for Lost City of Barakus, Vindication, Mother of all Encounter Tables, et al, and liking many of TLG's own D20 products, I heard about Castles and Crusades.

"Liberating" is the best single word I can use to explain what C&C did for me. Then I can easily add "ressurecting", because it brought my love for D&D back from the grave much like I imagine the strength and furosity of a Phoenix returning from their death to be like.

So, for these reasons, and a whole lot more, I am confident in saying I am a Castles and Crusades fan for life.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

K, I'll admit, it was a cruel joke and I was a little early for April fools; I just wasn't sure I'd have computer access at that time.

Anyhoo, C&C's a real hit with me and I recently had a discussion with a friend about why d20 didn't give us the same 'rush' as earlier D&D additions did:

I don't hate d20 by any stretch, but I'm beginning to feel that there's a 'psychological component' which differs from 1st and 2nd editions.

Before I sound too creepy or Mazes & Monstery, I'll elaborate:

For us, we noticed that we spent much more time focused upon battle maps, miniatures, scale, etc. and began to feel less conected with the stories and narrative of the DM; I felt little more than a disembodied god moving chess pieces around, whereas in earlier D&D, there was a different 'feel', with people seemingly more emotionally charged and connected with what their characters were doing, and with the world itself.

Indeedy, it got to the point in those earlier games that hours would slip by without notice...

I remember dming Queen of Spiders years ago, when the party was in an underground city and had to run up the stairs of a tower or face certain doom:

Well, it was about 3 in the morning, we'd been playing all day, and a guy's girlfriend showed up and joined the game in the middle of things...

She began asking specifics about what the terain looked like, the size of the steps, etc. all the while some dark god floated closer and closer to the party.

You could literally cut the tension with a knife.

Finally players began tearing at their character sheets, holding their heads in hands and some literally screamed at her to: "Get up the Stairs!!!!!!"

She sat down in shock, eyes wide in astonishment and yelled at me: "Geeeze, O.K!"

Maybe that's partially how D&D got a bad rap at the time: because of its ability to get people soooo rapped up in it.

I remember seeing players days later, suffering from sleep deprevation because they'd spent the last night tossing and turning thinking about what to do in the next game.

Maybe I and the people I played with were just 'not right in our heads' you ask?

I dunno.

I truly think that taking away the gaming boards and complex battle board tactics (ie. this square's touching this square so you can fire, etc.) and no longer having every action described in rule format, has relinked us to the game somehow; we imagine we're there, and things seem more 'real'.
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Re: Sticky: C&C cancelled due to WOTC lawsuit.

Post by pineappleleader »

slimykuotoan wrote:
Wizards of the Coast hereby reserves the right to inact:

Cease and all activities which impinge upon said act.

Don't ever do this again!

Please PM me with your snail mail address. I will be sending you my favorate shorts, socks and shoes for cleaning.
Quote:
How many people are here then, because they became disgruntled with d20 d&d?

This isn't intended to be a WOTC bashing thread; I'm just curious as to how it was, that you came to make the step to C&C...

I really like to play low level 3E. It is a great game for players. It is even better when you lose Attacks of Opportunity, skill synergy, and limit multi-classing to sane combinations. I like using a scale battle map and miniatures.

What caused me to look for another game was trying to DM 3E for my kids. My son is autistic and everything has to be set up for him. Too many restrictions and he becomes frustrated and has an austistic ephisode (this is a bad thing). My daughter inststs on being an elf and a rogue/mage. The prep time was just too much. Time to look for a new game.

The prep time in C&C is much less and the game system is close enough that "converting" characters is possible without all of us having to learn a whole new system. Battles are faster, games take less time and you can still use all your old d20 stuff if you want.
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Re: re:

Post by Dragonhelm »

slimykuotoan wrote:
K, I'll admit, it was a cruel joke and I was a little early for April fools; I just wasn't sure I'd have computer access at that time.

*throws rotten fruit*

It's not even a sticky!

*throws pineapple*
Quote:
I truly think that taking away the gaming boards and complex battle board tactics (ie. this square's touching this square so you can fire, etc.) and no longer having every action described in rule format, has relinked us to the game somehow; we imagine we're there, and things seem more 'real'.

Even when I ran d20, I ran it like I did my old AD&D games. I'm sorry, but D&D should not, IMNSHO, be a miniatures game. If you want to play that way, fine, but I like to picture it in my head.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a rather large watermelon to heave...
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Post by Lurker »

I DON"T FEEL WELL! Thursday the call "You need to come to the hospital...NOW" Then to catch up on what I miss here to read "canceled due to lawsuit".... I need a beer! A man can only take soooo many shocks!
Quote:
Indeedy, it got to the point in those earlier games that hours would slip by without notice...

I remember dming Queen of Spiders years ago, when the party was in an underground city and had to run up the stairs of a tower or face certain doom:

Well, it was about 3 in the morning, we'd been playing all day, and a guy's girlfriend showed up and joined the game in the middle of things...

She began asking specifics about what the terain looked like, the size of the steps, etc. all the while some dark god floated closer and closer to the party.

You could literally cut the tension with a knife.

Finally players began tearing at their character sheets, holding their heads in hands and some literally screamed at her to: "Get up the Stairs!!!!!!"

THAT IS ROLEPLAYING! I remember those games soooo well! I knew 3.5 was doomed the first night I tried to get a game going & it took 2 nights for 3 people to make their character, they weren't even being to specilized..... Then all the crunchy splat books came out......
I got lucky in reading about C&C at RPGNOW & e-mailed the Trolllord. It took a while for him to answer me (NO SUPRISE there for you all) but is was a LONG e-mail answering everything I ask & more. then read some of the product & I was almost hooked. Coming here & getting my hands on everything.....
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Post by pactmaster »

No kidding. I live to see players sweating over their character sheets. I believe that this is what it is all about; people getting wrapped up enough to tell an adventurous, thrilling story. As long as the tension ends with the gaming session all is fine.

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Post by Treebore »

You know, that is a very important distinction that I hadn't identified yet.

IT is better, and more real, when it gets visualized in my mind. 3e and all its rules kept me from doing it because of all the interuptions and rules that you had to keep in mind or look up all the time.

Miniatures and battlemats have always helped me clarify my visualizations, but the 3E rules about facing, etc... ruined that for me as well.

Cool. Thanks for helping me identify that difference.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

Yeah:

I think my friend called it being 'in the flow', when you're 'in d&d land', and that's something -for some reason- we didn't experience with 3rd edition.
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Re: re:

Post by Orpheus »

Dragonhelm wrote:
I'm sorry, but D&D should not, IMNSHO, be a miniatures game. If you want to play that way, fine, but I like to picture it in my head.

I've always felt the same way. When I was a kid it was twofold: I wanted to feel like I was actually experiencing an adventure and not playing a board game. Also, if I had $20 to spend and I had a choice between a little toy to look at or a new book to enhance my game then I chose the latter. I'm not beyond using army men or some little pawns I picked up from Advancing Hordes to show simple spatial relationships, but I don't care for full-on miniatures gaming.

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Post by Lurker »

I've leand to using minis but not in the 3.e anal way. Gust a good general way to help see things. I also waist time playing historic mini war games so have tons of lead to use. If the rules ever got to a point where that caused the picture in my minds eye to go fuzzy because of the lead (3.e anyone) I'd drop it in a heart beat!
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Re: re:

Post by Rhuvein »

slimykuotoan wrote:
K, I'll admit, it was a cruel joke and I was a little early for April fools; I just wasn't sure I'd have computer access at that time.

Heh, no problemo. I don't really think too many peeps really believed it!
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Post by Telhawk »

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I - and my brother, Jungger - have between us got a few hundred bucks' worth of d20 D&D "core" books that are only going to see use now as reference/idea texts.

For us, there was no particular straw or whatever that broke the camel's back - it was the simple fact that, the one time we finally, finally managed to get the gang back together (after a ten year hiatus), and transferred over some fourteenth-level characters to pick up where a cliffhanger ending had left off, the resulting experience - for me, at least - better resembled a group of tax lawyers hammering out the requirements, details and points of vulnerability for auditing a delinquent corporation. There was no real engagement, no description of the action, no wide-eyed perusal of the dice as a crucial roll was made. Only the thrust, parry, and riposte of various Feats brought into play to nullify abilities, and to render one side or the other immobile and insensate.

No fun.

After some extensive after-action discussion, Jungger figured that he could have made his Wizard an effective combatant...if he did his research, picked the proper prestige classes (War Mage, most likely), did the min-max thing with the Feats and basically gave up on any damage-dealing spells that were under fifth level. In other words, stopped being an enthusiastic player and became a good tax attorney.

On to more pleasant subjects. C&C has been an absolute joy for us to get into, not only because of the streamlined nature of the SIEGE engine, not just because The Man approves of it, not just because the books are very affordable...it's because we get to create the real meat of the game ourselves, like we did in the past. The dice are providing us with guidelines, that's all...we get to do the work when it comes to describing various hits, near-misses and fobbles.

The FLGS has provided us with some of the basics for C&C, and I have contacted Little Rock and taken advantage of the sale (Yay!) to have the balance of the material delivered to my door. I am holding my breath in anticipation of the Castle Keeper's Guide's (hopefully!) imminent arrival in September, and that the rest of the Castle Zygag stuff and After Winter's Dark are hot on its tail. To the C&C crew: Thank you for keeping - and restoring - the faith and allowing us to have a bit of our childhoods back.

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old school gamer
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Post by old school gamer »

You know my friend David was running a pick-up Eberron game once and my friend Alec and I were making characters for his game and we were only starting at like first level. When I got about half-way through my character and trying to pick out the right feats I couldn't help but think how we would have had our characters done and playing already if we had been playing C&C.

I have pretty much lost any interest in D&D 3.5 anymore. I never cared much for splatbooks and as a GM I prefer one book to look stuff up, which was the major reason in the past that I always preferred HERO System, (which I still like BTW). Now when I run C&C I hardly ever have to look up any rules and can just tell the story. It is soooo refreshing.

IanTheMoxious
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Post by IanTheMoxious »

I have to agree that "refreshing" is the right word for C&C. As a child of the 80's my longest gaming experience was with 2nd edition D&D (into the 90's of course). I always really dug the idea behind the project but, it's when I picked up M&T and saw the stat blocks that about 10 years of gaming flashed before my eyes. My 3e books are rather dusty.

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Breakdaddy
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Post by Breakdaddy »

I really want to donkey punch you for this, SK...
"If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
-Genghis Khan

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LordSeurek
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Post by LordSeurek »

I love it!!!
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