Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

[Grandpa]

As subject states. This mechanism as described to players (and new CKs) in the PHB is wonky and causes more confusion than anything else in the game.

That is, having two Challenge Base numbers and therefore two Challenge Class numbers. There should just be ONE Challenge Base of 18 and only ONE Challenge Class number for a given check/save. Thus, if you are rolling against a Prime Attribute you add 6 to your roll and if NOT a Prime you don't add 6. Having 12 & 18 as CB's is a completely unnecessary complexity and is not needed for the calculation of success or failure. I've had more new players stick on this part than any other in the game. So, I first go over this with new players and they are much happier thinking this way. It also takes out an unneeded step for the GM in figuring and recording CC's

[Go0gleplex]

Since I write most everything I run, I tend to have the TN's noted in the margin before the game. And yeah...I just tell the players to add six if Prime and give me a roll result.

[paladinn]

I use CB of 15 and add 3 for primes. That's all. Simpler and less swingy that way.

[Fizz]

Thus, if you are rolling against a Prime Attribute you add 6 to your roll and if NOT a Prime you don't add 6. Having 12 & 18 as CB's is a completely unnecessary complexity and is not needed for the calculation of success or failure. I've had more new players stick on this part than any other in the game.

This has been an issue since C&C came out. I suspect it is the single most common house rule. I know i've used it ever since i got my first copy of C&C (in 2005... i think?).

This would be a good tweak for that hypothetical 2nd Edition that was discussed in another thread. Same system, just simplified.

-Fizz

[Grandpa]

This would be a good tweak for that hypothetical 2nd Edition that was discussed in another thread. Same system, just simplified.

-Fizz

Yes. At a minimum it should be in the next "printing".

[Go0gleplex]

Or simply read the CKG; page 276 & 277.

[Grandpa]

Or simply read the CKG; page 276 & 277.

My new players don't have the CKG. Also I'm talking about a CORE rule book change so new players coming into the game don't have to deal with it. That's why simply reading the CKG is not a solution...

[Go0gleplex]

So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?

As a GM, I never tell the players what the TN they need is nor allow them to set the TN (which is the GMs job) so they can just focus on their die roll (and be forced to give me a number result rather than a ubiquitous "I made it!" response) which pretty well removes all of the confusion on their end of things. Unless they are cognitively deficient in some way.

[Ancalagon]

So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?

As a GM, I never tell the players what the TN they need is nor allow them to set the TN (which is the GMs job) so they can just focus on their die roll (and be forced to give me a number result rather than a ubiquitous "I made it!" response) which pretty well removes all of the confusion on their end of things. Unless they are cognitively deficient in some way.

Emphasis mine.
That's some funny feces right there!
In my experience running a C&C campaign and running C&C games at cons, none of the players I've dealt with had an issue with the primary and secondary target numbers.

[Grandpa]

So, I put this to the Trolls to deal with. We'll see if one with the math gene gets hold of it.

[paladinn]

So, I put this to the Trolls to deal with. We'll see if one with the math gene gets hold of it.

The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present

[Fizz]

So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?

Of course you are correct. The end result does not care whether you subtract 6 from the required number or add 6 to the die roll.

However, most players are only interested in their character. They just want to tell the CK "i rolled a ___". And the player usually wants to see the benefit of prime, so adding +6 to the roll, rather than a change in difficulty, makes more sense to the player (usually, in my experience anyways).

To expand on that in more philosophical terms, the difficulty of the challenge should not depend on the character. The challenge is the challenge... it cares not who is attempting it. A slippery cliff is always a slippery cliff; it doesn't say "that guy has Str prime, so i'll be less slippery". Rather, the effect of primes lies from and with the character. It is the character that has a prime attribute or not. So to me, that's where the benefit should be reflected: in the character's roll.

Yes, the math works out to the same result, and everyone here can do it. But to me, it's not about the math, but putting the benefit with the correct source.

-Fizz

[Tadhg]

The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present

Not at all ~ they simply see an excellent opportunity to make their many adventure modules and other material available to a giant crowd of 5E gamers. I'd say it's a smart business choice.

[Persimmon]

So, I put this to the Trolls to deal with. We'll see if one with the math gene gets hold of it.

The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present

True that. I'd love to see Steve finish the Dungeons of Aufstrag but that seems unlikely. I've been clamoring for a C&C version of Oriental Adventures for years, but that also seems unlikely. Instead, just new printings and 5e conversions for the most part, though I do appreciate the Adventurers Spellbook.

[Tadhg]

So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?

As a GM, I never tell the players what the TN they need is nor allow them to set the TN (which is the GMs job) so they can just focus on their die roll (and be forced to give me a number result rather than a ubiquitous "I made it!" response) which pretty well removes all of the confusion on their end of things. Unless they are cognitively deficient in some way.

yep

[Tadhg]

So, I put this to the Trolls to deal with. We'll see if one with the math gene gets hold of it.

The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present

True that. I'd love to see Steve finish the Dungeons of Aufstrag but that seems unlikely. I've been clamoring for a C&C version of Oriental Adventures for years, but that also seems unlikely. Instead, just new printings and 5e conversions for the most part, though I do appreciate the Adventurers Spellbook.

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

[Go0gleplex]

There were plans to do three Oriental Codices at one point about the same time that the Egyptian one was in editing. However, at this point, with the focus put more onto 5e money makers and rehashing already written stuff into compilation works, it is unlikely that we'll see the three books. Or much of any actual new material for that matter any time soon, especially as Tadhg said...Steve tends to be a one pony show with support from Davis and a very few others.

[Persimmon]

Briann Young is doing the codices, right? So that's not on Steve directly, though obviously he'd have a hand in that.

And yes, I'm well aware that this is a small operation. My disappointment is simply with the fact that we've been mostly getting re-packages and/or 5e conversions as opposed to new C&C material. I suspect that may be for monetary reasons, as one presumes the much larger 5e market brings in a certain amount of coin and Steve has said that modules don't generally bring in a lot of money. But he also said the the Aufstrag series boxed sets have done quite well. So I don't think wishing for say, A18-22 is that out of line. I'd certainly back it on KS. Hell, I'd help with proofing & editing and even writing it from Steve's notes if he'd be up for it.

So I'll continue wishing & waiting....

[Tadhg]

Briann Young is doing the codices, right? So that's not on Steve directly, though obviously he'd have a hand in that.

And yes, I'm well aware that this is a small operation. My disappointment is simply with the fact that we've been mostly getting re-packages and/or 5e conversions as opposed to new C&C material. I suspect that may be for monetary reasons, as one presumes the much larger 5e market brings in a certain amount of coin and Steve has said that modules don't generally bring in a lot of money. But he also said the the Aufstrag series boxed sets have done quite well. So I don't think wishing for say, A18-22 is that out of line. I'd certainly back it on KS. Hell, I'd help with proofing & editing and even writing it from Steve's notes if he'd be up for it.

So I'll continue wishing & waiting....

OK, yeah . . and well said - agree that the final mods of Aufstrag need to be completed!
`

[anvil242]

When I ask my players for a stat check, I ask them to tell me how much the passed/failed by. They know the 12/18 thing. I never tell them the difficulty because there is no way for them to affect it. I ask for a roll, they tell me passed by 3, or failed by 1, and I apply that in my head and tell them the outcome. I have introduced many players to C&C and that mechanic is much easier to explain than Thac0 ever was.

[JShan101]

So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?

Happened with my players (some new to the hobby, others not) when I decided to "simplify" by doing the add 6 thing. I had been going with "tell me if it's Prime" and thought it would be quicker to do it this way. But nope, they seemed better with the first way. So in my notes, I just write, for example, DEX CHK CL 3 [15/21] and all they need to do is roll and say Prime when applicable.

[paladinn]

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

I get that it's a small company and they need to make money. Nothing wrong with that. It just seems like they've dropped (or at least back-burnered) what put them on the map. There's a real niche for OSR-style games with modern mechanics. C&C fills that niche better than anything else I've seen. It's just a shame that the Trolls can't find time to develop it more. Same with Amazing Adventures: that is my idea of a modern/steampunk game, especially since it can be used alongside C&C!

[Grandpa]

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

I know of no one here that doesn't know or understand that. Did YOU just discover those facts?

[Go0gleplex]

I get that it's a small company and they need to make money. Nothing wrong with that. It just seems like they've dropped (or at least back-burnered) what put them on the map. There's a real niche for OSR-style games with modern mechanics. C&C fills that niche better than anything else I've seen. It's just a shame that the Trolls can't find time to develop it more. Same with Amazing Adventures: that is my idea of a modern/steampunk game, especially since it can be used alongside C&C!

This is something I've raised with not only Tim at length and in detail plus a couple other folks in the chain there while the Knights site was getting put together and then ignored. It was faster and easier for them to convert developed material for a profit than create new stuff for the smaller customer base is what it all boiled down to. And one of the main reasons I just stopped trying to support things; I mean, not a lot of reason to support stuff the creators aren't even supporting. That and a few other reasons which are already well known to those needing to know.

[Tadhg]

.

[paladinn]

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

I know of no one here that doesn't know or understand that. Did YOU just discover those facts?

then u haven't read the whole of this thread, asshole! I don't discover facts shithead, I post them to let others know who may not be aware of them

U need to fuck off and get outta here, YOU ARE A FUCKING TROLL!

I cast . . be gone ASSHOLE!

Never a moderator around when you need one.

Totally unnecessary.

[Tadhg]

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

I know of no one here that doesn't know or understand that. Did YOU just discover those facts?

then u haven't read the whole of this thread, asshole! I don't discover facts shithead, I post them to let others know who may not be aware of them

U need to fuck off and get outta here, YOU ARE A FUCKING TROLL!

I cast . . be gone ASSHOLE!

Never a moderator around when you need one.

Totally unnecessary.

Uhh, really? Your opinion is totally unnecessary and snarky. Why post it?

[Go0gleplex]

Okay...both you guys CHILL! Things like that blow out will get the thread locked. Again.

Gramps...the snide wasn't cool. Tadhg...response was a bit disproportional to the offense dude.

[paladinn]

NOT TRUE THAT!

I think many of you either don't know or don't understand that it's a SMALL company and Steve had to do all the work. If fact, it's really astounding how much he accomplishes each and every year.

I know of no one here that doesn't know or understand that. Did YOU just discover those facts?

then u haven't read the whole of this thread, asshole! I don't discover facts shithead, I post them to let others know who may not be aware of them

U need to fuck off and get outta here, YOU ARE A FUCKING TROLL!

I cast . . be gone ASSHOLE!

Never a moderator around when you need one.

Totally unnecessary.

Uhh, really? Your opinion is totally unnecessary and snarky. Why post it?

Umm.. you just cursed someone out for next to nothing. But I'm the one who's snarky?

You have serious anger issues, dude. And you're going to get the thread locked. Congrats.

[Tadhg]

Umm.. you just cursed someone out for next to nothing. But I'm the one who's snarky?

You have serious anger issues, dude. And you're going to get the thread locked. Congrats.

Umm, dude, don't call me dude.

Yer a newbie and no that doesn't mean that I'm right and your wrong. It means that you might not be aware of how grampass is a classic forum troll. Just click on his profile to see his past posts.

And no, I don't have anger issues . . just issues with assholes who are forum trolls.