Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

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paladinn
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by paladinn »

Tadhg wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:36 pm
paladinn wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:48 am


Umm.. you just cursed someone out for next to nothing. But I'm the one who's snarky?

You have serious anger issues, dude. And you're going to get the thread locked. Congrats.
Umm, dude, don't call me dude.

Yer a newbie and no that doesn't mean that I'm right and your wrong. It means that you might not be aware of how grampass is a classic forum troll. Just click on his profile to see his past posts.

And no, I don't have anger issues . . just issues with assholes who are forum trolls.
I've been on the receiving end of Grandpa's grumpiness. He called me a liar and a coward for quoting him.

I'm new Here, but not on these forums in general. Just didn't think what he said warranted your response.

But hey, you do you. I just hope the thread doesn't get locked.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Grandpa »

Tadhg wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:26 am

then u haven't read the whole of this thread, asshole! I don't discover facts shithead, I post them to let others know who may not be aware of them

U need to fuck off and get outta here, YOU ARE A FUCKING TROLL!

I cast . . be gone ASSHOLE!
Always check the expiration dates on your psych meds before taking them :idea:

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Rigon »

Sorry folks, I've been busy with real-life stuff this past week or so. I will give this thread a chance to correct itself or I'll lock it.

Tadhg, as a friend, I'm going to ask you to delete your post. We will have civil discussions here.


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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Rigon »

To the original topic, I've never had players have trouble with Prime/Non-Prime. I ask for a roll, the player rolls the dice, adds everything up, and just adds "Prime" or "Not Prime" when they give me their results. It's up to me to know if they made the roll or not.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by maximus »

Rigon wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:08 am
To the original topic, I've never had players have trouble with Prime/Non-Prime. I ask for a roll, the player rolls the dice, adds everything up, and just adds "Prime" or "Not Prime" when they give me their results. It's up to me to know if they made the roll or not.

R-
Yup, this

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Lurker »

maximus wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:15 am
Rigon wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:08 am
To the original topic, I've never had players have trouble with Prime/Non-Prime. I ask for a roll, the player rolls the dice, adds everything up, and just adds "Prime" or "Not Prime" when they give me their results. It's up to me to know if they made the roll or not.

R-
Yup, this
Rgr this

How Monday night ne'er do wells have been doing it for years, at least when we have been able to game and real life hasn't gotten in the way.

Also, how I taught my girls (started truly gaming when they were 13 and 14 1/2 and have been playing for a year) and their best friend (same age as the older girl) and her father ( old school gamer that played D&D back in the day but hadn't played since 2e. Plus it was easy enough for them to understand that my younger girl last month (due to some unfortunate life things getting in the way of their normal game) stepped in and ran a 1 shot that she made up at the table. Easier for her to run her 1st game with C&C than it was for me to run my first 1e game. All she had to do for EVERYTHING was roll an A check or make a B save, and the 2 players would say I rolled x or y prime/non-prime. Where as back in 1e I had to look up % for the thief, remember if it is a 1 or a 6 on a d6 for the elf to notice the hidden door, etc etc etc.

As for side bar issue. Rgr it is annoying that TLG isn't as fast at getting books out as I / we would like (and yes I'd LOVE Codex for China and Mid East and Transoxiana - not sure they are any of the 3 possible ones but I'll put them on my wish list) and that they are more focused on 5eing their old adventures, However, they are a business and have to make money so that hopefully the can keep putting out good C&C adventures and books, so it might be annoying but it is understandable.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Captain_K »

I assume everyone has had a chance to cool down.

two technical points.
1) I too like to keep things really simple. I leave it to the PC to declare, "I rolled a natural 12 and since you said it's a DEX save against fireball I add my +6 for prime, +2 for the stat, and +9 for my level, so I total a 29." DM, "Not good enough because the wizard is 19th level you needed a 37 to save." Player reply, "Damn, even with DEX as a prime I need to roll a natual 20. Damn, we're screwed!"
2) Trolls need to eat. They control almost all creative material, I think, thus the pipe that is Davis and Steve is only so big. The conversion of their material as a writer is nice to see more play. So pays the bills and gets their material to greater audience. That may convert more folks to base CnC away from 5e. Also not bad for us. That said, I am wishing for more new material, but I find the Codex marginally useful to date and I do not use their world nor their modules but that is not their fault, I have my own and its easier to remember my own than read someone elses.

New thought, let me know if it needs a thread. In the above example. Saves never get easy in this game. Good or bad, that is how it works. So do you normally just stick with its base being and 18 or is there a simple way to make it less hard to pass. Just lower it to 15 and move on? Thus a prime of say +5 bonus makes the easy save only a 10 not a 12 and the hard save a 15. If your good its 50% to save and if your not its 25% rather than the current 40% and 10%. Thoughts on making saves more likely.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:48 pm
Thoughts on making saves more likely.
Just lower the challenge. E.g. instead of pitting them against a 19th level Wizzo make it a 15th level wizzo. Instead of a 19th level trap make it a lower level one.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Captain_K »

That is not the point, my point is on average saves seem rather hard to pass in general relative to the "old days" when high level meant nearly always making saves. NOT saying I want to go back to that, just musing why was the save base chance of success set so low? (or so hard to pass needing an 18). You might make a save you are good at and you will likely fail a save you are not. Apply that to a group save and some one, possibly many someone will fail the save. I have to now plan for that. I have to assume many will fail any given save and know what that means for group survival. If I have an 9th lvl party and they are against one powerful evil undead sorcerous she's going to have to be much higher level to be "scary" against a smart and capable party acting together, but her fireball or chain lightning is truly scary. Damn near killing anyone who fails the save and does not have a fighter's hit points. If the saves were just 15 to 20% easier most would save in their prime and the non-primes might make it half the time. It would change the game dynamics, just curious how so, is it worth trying it, etc.

Has anyone made this kind of change and liked the results?
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Neuroschmancer »

Tadhg wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:18 am
paladinn wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:40 pm


The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present :(
Not at all ~ they simply see an excellent opportunity to make their many adventure modules and other material available to a giant crowd of 5E gamers. I'd say it's a smart business choice.
Totally agree with Tadhg on this one. I think its great that TLG is giving 5e players the opportunity to experience old school style adventures in 5e. I think its the most effective way to have the broader market become aware of TLG and its work. I don't think we truly appreciate just how niche and eclectic this community is to the broader market. We are in our own little bubble. Most people don't go actively searching around for other systems or are only vaguely aware that something other than 5e is out there. 5e isn't the enemy, its just the system that has broad appeal and enough people enjoy playing. If 5e didn't exist, those players wouldn't magically find C&C or some other OSR game, they would have never entered the hobby. Each additional system someone has to learn requires investment, and attempting to find a system you like in the huge ecosystem of OSR isn't exactly easy.

Business and economics are a reality. If TLG doesn't do what is necessary to succeed in this market, they won't be able to stick around. I think reaching out to the 5e crowd is the best use of TLGs time, not just for business reasons, but also for giving 5e players an experience they aren't going to find other places.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Captain_K »

well put.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by paladinn »

Neuroschmancer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:40 pm
Tadhg wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:18 am
paladinn wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:40 pm


The Trolls seem more interested in supporting 5e than their own product at present :(
Not at all ~ they simply see an excellent opportunity to make their many adventure modules and other material available to a giant crowd of 5E gamers. I'd say it's a smart business choice.
Totally agree with Tadhg on this one. I think its great that TLG is giving 5e players the opportunity to experience old school style adventures in 5e. I think its the most effective way to have the broader market become aware of TLG and its work. I don't think we truly appreciate just how niche and eclectic this community is to the broader market. We are in our own little bubble. Most people don't go actively searching around for other systems or are only vaguely aware that something other than 5e is out there. 5e isn't the enemy, its just the system that has broad appeal and enough people enjoy playing. If 5e didn't exist, those players wouldn't magically find C&C or some other OSR game, they would have never entered the hobby. Each additional system someone has to learn requires investment, and attempting to find a system you like in the huge ecosystem of OSR isn't exactly easy.

Business and economics are a reality. If TLG doesn't do what is necessary to succeed in this market, they won't be able to stick around. I think reaching out to the 5e crowd is the best use of TLGs time, not just for business reasons, but also for giving 5e players an experience they aren't going to find other places.
Again, I don't at all blame the Trolls for supporting 5e. And their 5e-compatable version of AA is Exactly what I want in a modern-ish 5e-style game. I just wish they could spare a little love for what put them on the map.

And I never said 5e was "the enemy." Some of the cool things that have set 5e apart from previous editions were adapted from C&C. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery!

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Captain_K »

I use from the CKG luck and hero points and we allow three luck points to become advantage or disadvantage.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by bulletmeat »

Second to last C&C group we did the +3 prime, -3 prime vs 15 + half HD or spell level for saves. Worked great and kept the AD&D flavor of saves for us.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by bulletmeat »

Neuroschmancer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:40 pm

Totally agree with Tadhg on this one. I think its great that TLG is giving 5e players the opportunity to experience old school style adventures in 5e. I think its the most effective way to have the broader market become aware of TLG and its work. I don't think we truly appreciate just how niche and eclectic this community is to the broader market. We are in our own little bubble. Most people don't go actively searching around for other systems or are only vaguely aware that something other than 5e is out there. 5e isn't the enemy, its just the system that has broad appeal and enough people enjoy playing. If 5e didn't exist, those players wouldn't magically find C&C or some other OSR game, they would have never entered the hobby. Each additional system someone has to learn requires investment, and attempting to find a system you like in the huge ecosystem of OSR isn't exactly easy.

Business and economics are a reality. If TLG doesn't do what is necessary to succeed in this market, they won't be able to stick around. I think reaching out to the 5e crowd is the best use of TLGs time, not just for business reasons, but also for giving 5e players an experience they aren't going to find other places.
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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Lurker »

bulletmeat wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:13 pm
Neuroschmancer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:40 pm

Totally agree with Tadhg on this one. I think its great that TLG is giving 5e players the opportunity to experience old school style adventures in 5e. I think its the most effective way to have the broader market become aware of TLG and its work. I don't think we truly appreciate just how niche and eclectic this community is to the broader market. We are in our own little bubble. Most people don't go actively searching around for other systems or are only vaguely aware that something other than 5e is out there. 5e isn't the enemy, its just the system that has broad appeal and enough people enjoy playing. If 5e didn't exist, those players wouldn't magically find C&C or some other OSR game, they would have never entered the hobby. Each additional system someone has to learn requires investment, and attempting to find a system you like in the huge ecosystem of OSR isn't exactly easy.

Business and economics are a reality. If TLG doesn't do what is necessary to succeed in this market, they won't be able to stick around. I think reaching out to the 5e crowd is the best use of TLGs time, not just for business reasons, but also for giving 5e players an experience they aren't going to find other places.
Most people just want a nice car to drive around. But for the rest of us, we like to go freewheeling in our old hotrod!

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by an_th »

Fizz wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:49 pm
Go0gleplex wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:55 am
So players have an issue with when to add or not add 6? Isn't that like on the same level as knowing when to open a window during a rainstorm or not? I mean it's a binary situation; Prime. Not Prime. How can they confuse it?
Of course you are correct. The end result does not care whether you subtract 6 from the required number or add 6 to the die roll.

However, most players are only interested in their character. They just want to tell the CK "i rolled a ___". And the player usually wants to see the benefit of prime, so adding +6 to the roll, rather than a change in difficulty, makes more sense to the player (usually, in my experience anyways).

To expand on that in more philosophical terms, the difficulty of the challenge should not depend on the character. The challenge is the challenge... it cares not who is attempting it. A slippery cliff is always a slippery cliff; it doesn't say "that guy has Str prime, so i'll be less slippery". Rather, the effect of primes lies from and with the character. It is the character that has a prime attribute or not. So to me, that's where the benefit should be reflected: in the character's roll.

Yes, the math works out to the same result, and everyone here can do it. But to me, it's not about the math, but putting the benefit with the correct source.

-Fizz
I am interested in this argument.
Because, philosophically, and certainly psychologically, it could be argued that the difficulty of the challenge is in the mind of the character.

One character with a STR or DEX prime is going to look at that cliff and tackle it with confidence, knowing how to approach it,
Another character without those primes is going to see 'a slippery cliff'.

So I believe it could be argued either way.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by an_th »

Personally, I have a number in my head that is the result needed. Sometimes I tell them what they need to succeed, sometimes I don't.

I have played in games where the 12/18 is used and it simplifies things: everyone knows whether they succeeded or failed when they roll, and that in itself can be fun, either celebrating the success or, as we all anticipate what is going to happen after a failure.

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by Fizz »

an_th wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:20 am
Fizz wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:49 pm
To expand on that in more philosophical terms, the difficulty of the challenge should not depend on the character. The challenge is the challenge... it cares not who is attempting it. A slippery cliff is always a slippery cliff; it doesn't say "that guy has Str prime, so i'll be less slippery". Rather, the effect of primes lies from and with the character. It is the character that has a prime attribute or not. So to me, that's where the benefit should be reflected: in the character's roll.

Yes, the math works out to the same result, and everyone here can do it. But to me, it's not about the math, but putting the benefit with the correct source.

-Fizz
I am interested in this argument.
Because, philosophically, and certainly psychologically, it could be argued that the difficulty of the challenge is in the mind of the character.

One character with a STR or DEX prime is going to look at that cliff and tackle it with confidence, knowing how to approach it,
Another character without those primes is going to see 'a slippery cliff'.

So I believe it could be argued either way.
Indeed, it is the difference that ultimately matters.

Maybe it's from my scientific training, but i like to keep constant things, well, constant. In the case of the slippery cliff, any measurable physical quantity (steepness, surface friction, etc) are all constant, regardless of who is attempting it. What differs is the character attempting the climb.

But in the end, whatever works best for your game is the way to go. :)

-Fizz

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Re: Calculating Challenge Class needlessly complex

Post by serleran »

I do this simply by rolling 1d12:

Roll ... Result
1 - 5 ... CR = character level -1d6
6 - 10 ... CR = character level
11-12 ... CR = character level +1d6

The normal application of SIEGE stands. Many times a roll is not even needed if I determine it to be something not dramatic or either too easy/hard for the mortal involved - where mixtures of deity and not are involved, things do get a little more complex but a God of Strength can lose to a PC with a 3 in it... though, that is a one in a billion, basically.

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