Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

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anvil242
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by anvil242 »

Most of us play a human 24/7, I don't see why I should have to in my games, too. What's wrong with an all demi-human game?

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Lurker »

I may be a rarity here, but I think the -6 of having 1 less prime is to harsh.

In all the years since I started playing C&C I have only played 1 non-human character. That -6 was devastating to the elf thief. Whic 2 of the 3 needed primes to pick, Dex, Wis, or Int ???? no matter what some of the thief core abilities are hamstrung. I chose Dex & WIS, so I SUCKED at finding and disarming traps. Now that was bad for my character, but it was also BAD for the party. The member they relied on to make sure the path was safe was at -6 to do so. And the salt in the wound was that yes I may bolo the find trap check, but when the trap goes off and 20 feet of the floor collapses to revile a pit trap, my character more than likely would make the Dex save, yet others in the party, that would never have dex prime, were more than likely falling into the trap. They were punished because I was at -6

After that lesson I will never again play a non-human character btb for C&C.

Also. I have never agreed with the thought that everything MUST be balanced, or that humans are BETTER than other races. I root my role playing in Tolkien, it is what gave me the love of fantasy, and in it races were not balanced or hamstrung so humans could be best.

Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be a negative to playing a non-human. If you play an elf in the home brew I've put together for my girls up coming games, orcs will sense you are in the area, the will HATE any elf the see and attack them relentlessly, even if better tactics would be to focus on other characters, and there are groups of humans that distrust any elf or hate them almost as much as orcs do. Plus their fate / Weal is significantly more limited than humans. Dwarves, greed and -2 CHA check to dealing with any fey kin etc etc etc.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

If we took a poll, I think one would find very few people play a race to get a class bonus. That third +6 to a stat humans get also is a pretty big game bonus too, I would say past racial bonuses.

I bet most folks play their favored races for many reasons, too much love affair with elves from reading Tolkien as a youth or what have you.

Personally, I get bored easily, I like to try new classes and new races or themes and I like pushing the character to see what it can do, to attempt to always have an option, or help, as such I tend to be the guy stuck being the cleric for the good of the group, but then I try to multi-class that when I can to try something new.

Pet theory: Vision is a big reason I think many folks play a race. At least in CnC elves and halflings cannot see underground... thus half a mixed group, not just the humans, need light.

Min/Max will always play a roll, the elf fighter specialized in bow comes to mind.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

The irony for us is that humans are almost always the minority in the parties we create, just because we think demi-humans are cooler. So my campaign world heavily emphasizes demi-humans and they aren't the rarities or freaks they are in many settings. The higher level party consists of:

Female Human Wizard
Male Human Paladin
Female Half-elf Bard
Male Dwarf Cleric
Male Halfling Swashbuckler (Hackmaster Class)
Male Gnome Illusionist/Rogue
Female Elf Ranger

And the new party we just rolled up has:

Male Dwarf Battle Priest
Male Dwarf Runegraver (AS&SH Equivalent of Rune Mark)
Male Gnome Arcane Bard
Female Elf Archer
Half-oni Monk [Basically a modified half-orc]
Female Human Elementalist Adept [Specialist Wizard]
Male Half-elf Cleric/Thief
Female Halfling Ranger

So most of them are operating with just two primes and in the cases of the multi-classed characters, there really is no choice so the thief types, as someone noted above, have some real limitations in their abilities. Haven't noticed much in the way of more limited effectiveness with the higher level PCs, but I'll pay more attention to it now. It's certainly a trade-off for having racial abilities and the extra class abilities.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

Lurker wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:29 pm
I may be a rarity here, but I think the -6 of having 1 less prime is to harsh.
I've only played a human 2-3 times. I never felt it a problem for the demi-human PCs. I was playing a role though and not a group of stats or a "build"

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

Grandpa wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:54 pm
Lurker wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:29 pm
I may be a rarity here, but I think the -6 of having 1 less prime is to harsh.
I've only played a human 2-3 times. I never felt it a problem for the demi-human PCs. I was playing a role though and not a group of stats or a "build"
Well-put. I always try to come up with a cool character concept. It's never about min-maxing, but just what I think will be cool and/or fit the campaign. And since I've been a human all my life I'm not much interested in being one in make believe.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

Persimmon wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:21 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:54 pm
Lurker wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:29 pm
I may be a rarity here, but I think the -6 of having 1 less prime is to harsh.
I've only played a human 2-3 times. I never felt it a problem for the demi-human PCs. I was playing a role though and not a group of stats or a "build"
Well-put. I always try to come up with a cool character concept. It's never about min-maxing, but just what I think will be cool and/or fit the campaign. And since I've been a human all my life I'm not much interested in being one in make believe.
You just reminded about an AD&D cartoon. A group of D&D adventurers being told about a RPG where they get to play "us" basically. Called, Papers & Paychecks! :lol:

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by jahydin »

Grandpa wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:57 pm
Compared to loosing a +6 bonus to all attribute checks with one characteristic (having 2 instead of 3 prime stats as a demi-human) the small demi-human stat bonus pales.
Agree completely. With each attribute encompassing so many skills, not to mention the Saving Throw it's tied too, losing out on that bonus is pretty taxing.

Two other ways to balance demi-humans:

If the campaign is human-centric, demi-humans can't just waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same as their human counterparts. This could also mean armor might have to be made specially for them.

Limit them to the Typical Classes list when choosing their class.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by jahydin »

Lurker wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 2:56 am
However, I give all races / cultures 3 primes not 2.
Have you given any thought to the Tertiary rules in the Castle Keeper's Guide? Letting demi-humans get 2 Prime (+6), 2 Secondary (+3), and 2 Non-Prime (+0) helps round them out a bit better I think.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:48 am
Two other ways to balance demi-humans:

If the campaign is human-centric, demi-humans can't just waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same as their human counterparts. This could also mean armor might have to be made specially for them.

Limit them to the Typical Classes list when choosing their class.
The first one is always a possibility in my games. In times before the "Age of reason" and far more modern philosophies that, bigotry is the NORM for cultures. Slavery, et al.

I have done the latter from time to time. One house rule I have is that Elves cannot be raised or resurrected. Only Reincarnated.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:48 am
Two other ways to balance demi-humans:

If the campaign is human-centric, demi-humans can't just waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same as their human counterparts. This could also mean armor might have to be made specially for them.

Limit them to the Typical Classes list when choosing their class.
The first one is always a possibility in my games. In times before the "Age of reason" and far more modern philosophies than that, bigotry is the NORM for cultures. Slavery, et al.

I have done the latter from time to time. One house rule I have is that Elves cannot be raised or resurrected. Only reincarnated and eventually, if they are "elven" enough they are eventually reincarnated to that elven land "across the sea"...

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by jahydin »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm
I have done the latter from time to time. One house rule I have is that Elves cannot be raised or resurrected. Only reincarnated and eventually, if they are "elven" enough they are eventually reincarnated to that elven land "across the sea"...
Was not being able to be raise ever a D&D rule? Sounds familiar...

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Lurker »

Jahydin

O that is a given with 'can't waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same'. Since my setting for my face to face is Middle Earth, it is VERY culture specific and there are those inherent issues even between humans.

A Dunnman waling into a Rohan village will be treated differently than if he walked into a Eriadorian town (as long as that town hasn't recently been raided by Dunnman. Any elf is going to be treated with awe (if the people are good) or suspicion (if they are tied to servants of the shadow.

I also do lean to limited typical classes. But it is not hard and fast. If someone wanted to play a class outside the norm (for good role playing, and has a good background reason for it) I'd allow it, but again there will be side ways looks and role playing ripples because of it.

The teriary rule is an option, but I went will all PCs get 3 primes, and each race culture has specific bonuses - humans (non Duneidian) get d4+2 points to add to their stats as they want (or limitedly focused by their culture), Elves/dwarves/hobbits/Duneiadian get specific stat bumps, each race/culture has bonus weapons, and race culture abilities.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:17 am
Was not being able to be raise ever a D&D rule? Sounds familiar...
For Elves? 1st Ed I think

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Ancalagon »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:08 pm
jahydin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:48 am
Two other ways to balance demi-humans:

If the campaign is human-centric, demi-humans can't just waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same as their human counterparts. This could also mean armor might have to be made specially for them.

Limit them to the Typical Classes list when choosing their class.
The first one is always a possibility in my games. In times before the "Age of reason" and far more modern philosophies that, bigotry is the NORM for cultures. Slavery, et al.

I have done the latter from time to time. One house rule I have is that Elves cannot be raised or resurrected. Only Reincarnated.
Underline by me.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Ancalagon »

Lurker wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 1:10 am
Jahydin

O that is a given with 'can't waltz into any settlement and expect to be treated the same'. Since my setting for my face to face is Middle Earth, it is VERY culture specific and there are those inherent issues even between humans.

A Dunnman waling into a Rohan village will be treated differently than if he walked into a Eriadorian town (as long as that town hasn't recently been raided by Dunnman. Any elf is going to be treated with awe (if the people are good) or suspicion (if they are tied to servants of the shadow.

I also do lean to limited typical classes. But it is not hard and fast. If someone wanted to play a class outside the norm (for good role playing, and has a good background reason for it) I'd allow it, but again there will be side ways looks and role playing ripples because of it.

The teriary rule is an option, but I went will all PCs get 3 primes, and each race culture has specific bonuses - humans (non Duneidian) get d4+2 points to add to their stats as they want (or limitedly focused by their culture), Elves/dwarves/hobbits/Duneiadian get specific stat bumps, each race/culture has bonus weapons, and race culture abilities.
Underline by me.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

Persimmon wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:04 pm

Female Human Elementalist Adept [Specialist Wizard]
Are you talking about C&C or another game?

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

It's C&C. Basically she's a wizard but can only cast spells related to the elements, broadly interpreted. Anything from Elemental Spells is okay even though some of those spells aren't really elemental. And then stuff like fireball, wall of ice, etc., are fair game. I thought about adding other stuff like save bonuses versus elemental spells, but we didn't end up doing that.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

Thinking about an advanced initiative system too

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

to your original questions, I love the idea of heavy armors limiting dex modifiers and things you can do purely for balance and keeping AC lower.
CnC can be tweaked many folks house rules have skills, abilities, languages, feats all sorts of things. Many of which are in the CKG.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

mostrojoe wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:41 pm
Thinking about an advanced initiative system too
Meh, have seen probably 50 of those over the decades. Not worth it. At least none I ever saw were used for more than a few gaming sessions.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

It could be.
Just an idea to give some bonus to characters with better reflexes.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

I like that elves & halflings cannot see underground.
I like that all classes are open to all races.
I like that no one restricts my imagination or that of my PCs in their "view".
The book is a set of starting rules, easy to modify.
Easy to logically add or subtract from.

CnC has a great core, a base and sure my house rules make grumpy old dwarves NOT the linguist in the group (that is the bard's job), and my house rules make a halfling a pretty good Ninja (Monk-Assassin), but in the end, its old school DnD with a few nice smoothing over the tables.

I will admit, I'm still running into the same 10th lvl blues I recall from the old days.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

For me, levels 10-14 are the "sweet spot." Guess it's my fond memories of the GDQ series etc. But I like bringing on those demons, devils, giants etc., and slugging it out with high level PCs.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

By blues I mean, they are really getting fun, but each battle seems to be razor edged, all or nothing, TPK or the opposite...
Tricky stuff.
Also MI bloat and roll a d20 add 18... things get out of wack fast.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

Yeah, I will say that unlike most iterations of D&D, the scaling of the Siege Engine keeps things pretty hardcore at the higher levels, which I like. And to be completely honest, I haven't run a C&C game above 8th level yet so my opinions may change when (if?) our PCs get to those higher levels.

Actually that's what happened in our Hyperborea campaign last year. Over the course of three adventures, 5 of the 6 PCs died in ways that prevented their recovery & resurrection. The other later died in Tegel Manor when he joined a different party but it was pretty epic, as he saved the rest of the party in the process. My players do appreciate epic deaths.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

Somewhere I red that the SIEGE system starts to "break" around the 10th level. But that is true for any d20 based system. And it was perhaps true even for the original D&D/AD&D system.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

I don't really buy that argument, though it does get significantly harder to run games at higher levels owing to the multitude of monster & character abilities at those levels. The thing with C&C is that if the players are fighting equally powerful foes they won't get better at surviving via saving throws since those are tied to the attacker's level. In AD&D, for example, your save against a 9th level spell is the same as against a 1st level spell. So if you're a 10th level thief that's a straight 10. But in C&C, assuming that the spellcaster is 17th level (min to cast 9th level spells in C&C), that's effectively a +7 to the roll needed then of course it depends upon your primes and the spell in question. To me, that makes perfect sense, as the scaling goes with power level. But it is a potentially big difference. I don't think it means the system breaks, it just works differently.

It is interesting, though, how a lot of newer games (like DCC, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Against the Darkmaster, Hyperborea) restrict the max character levels to 10-12 or so, on the premise that things do break down around these levels.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

mostrojoe wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:10 am
Somewhere I red that the SIEGE system starts to "break" around the 10th level. But that is true for any d20 based system. And it was perhaps true even for the original D&D/AD&D system.
No, it actually remains viable far better than AD&D did at higher levels. Just look at PC saves vs. spells in both rule sets.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Julian Grimm »

I always though adapting the Skill and Weapon Mastery rules from the RC would make an interesting game.
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