Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

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Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

Hi everyone.
I was just thinking about some rules that I really liked from D&D 3.5/Pathfinder and that I cannot find in C&C.
I'm asking you if, in your opinion, these rules are fine with the C&C gaming philosophy.
The first rule is about armors that can limit Dex bonuses as they get heavier. For an example it makes sense to see the 50gp difference in cost between the Splint Armor and the Banded Armor, because even if they give you the same AC bonus (+6) and the same Encumbrance, one of them, the Banded one, in D&D gives you a max dex bonus of +1, while the other, being more crude, gives you a 0 max dex bonus. This makes an interesting difference, while in C&C everyone would just buy the Splint Armor. It is the same of the Banded but it's cheaper.
Do you think that the max dex bonus rule can can be introduced in the C&C game? Or it ruins the balance?
Another rule that I liked was the one that permits to a character to augment some of his/her ability scores, just one in a while of course. It seems plausible to me that after many adventures a person can become stronger, or wiser. Real people too, by the way, can change a little during their lifetime. Going to the gym or completing some study. Some abilities may get down due to age, as we can see in some C&C tables, but cannot go up and it's seem a little strange.
Do you think these rules can damage C&C?

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

I don't see any real enjoyment enhancement from the armor rule. In my game if you buy cheaper armor it needs to be be replaced more frequently. Keeping track of more combat rules is not really in the flavor of C&C. IMO. As far as gaining points on ability scores, depends on the type of game you run I guess.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Rigon »

Since C&C is based on d20 D&D, you can add that stuff in easily. It won't effect your game immensely. I do an attribute score increase at every 4 levels. It works fine.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Lurker »

Rigon wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:02 pm
Since C&C is based on d20 D&D, you can add that stuff in easily. It won't effect your game immensely. I do an attribute score increase at every 4 levels. It works fine.

R-
Like Rig said, you can easily add stuff to C&C and it doesn't break the game.

I am a habitual tinkerer with rules and haven broken it yet.

Personally, I've never put much into armor restricting dex bonus (saw a documentary once comparing modern armor to medieval armor, and the guy in knight armor was able to do more than the guy in modern body armor - including a cert wheel ). That said, if it is your flavor and fits your game , grab the wrench and put it on the game and enjoy.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Fizz »

Neither your tweak to the armours or the bonus to an ability score will cause an "imbalance". If it works for your game, go for it. C&C is meant to be tweakable, and neither of these is a major deviation from the standard game.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

If you think of a fighter like a monster with a save of P... meaning primes in STR, DEX and CON... then a fighter in plate mail and large shield will also get his DEX bonus and magic on those items thus up his AC very high but the thief is much more limited.. Just like the mage and the wizard and the monk cannot wear armor because its restrictive, that sword should cut both ways, the fighter in plate mail cannot climb a wall and should not get his dex bonus or half his dex round down. I like the idea mainly to avoid creep in AC too. Didn't old DnD also limit move speed in certain armors?

But like the others, you are trivially affecting AC by likely not more than 4 points in extreme cases. You stat increase is nice, especially if you start at lower scores and say as the hero grows so does his ability score which is logical without waiting for calendar years (gods help your Humans in the group of elves).

Both seem fine, everyone has house rules.. like that 5'2" 180# dwarves in plate mail are NOT small creatures.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by bulletmeat »

I like the 'add an attribute point every 4th level' rule from newer D&D. It exemplifies growth (if small) in a character.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by jahydin »

I really like the Advantage/Disadvantage 5E mechanic and think it works really well for skill checks. For example, if a character mentions spending a lot of down town at the local pub, granting him Advantage to his CHR check the next time he needs some information is a fun way of rewarding them.

I love how hackable C&C is. I get just as much enjoyment seeing how others play their games as I do actually playing it!

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Lurker »

jahydin wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:42 am
I really like the Advantage/Disadvantage 5E mechanic and think it works really well for skill checks. For example, if a character mentions spending a lot of down town at the local pub, granting him Advantage to his CHR check the next time he needs some information is a fun way of rewarding them.

I love how hackable C&C is. I get just as much enjoyment seeing how others play their games as I do actually playing it!
Personally, I HATE advantage/disadvantage from 5e. Not because it is not a good idea, but I hate it because dice roller programs (especially the one on Roll 20 & on Maptools) HATE me. With them I have horrid luck. It is so bad that the running joke with the Monday night game is that something is wrong when I get anything over a 5 on a d20. The worst night I remember is in the 5 critical rolls I made in the game I got three 1s, a 3, and a 5.. Also the joke is my thief always disarms a trap for the group by kindly setting the trap off for the group so they don't have to worry about it later.

That said, I do like the idea behind advantage / disadvantage, especially as you said rewarding them for role playing etc. But as someone with horrid dice luck … I prefer bonusses of plusses (and the more plusses the better to overcome my dice god's curse).
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by bulletmeat »

Lurker wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:06 pm
That said, I do like the idea behind advantage / disadvantage, especially as you said rewarding them for role playing etc. But as someone with horrid dice luck … I prefer bonusses of plusses (and the more plusses the better to overcome my dice god's curse).
You may just need to try a different program. And if you still have that problem then the interweb gods are against you my friend. You need to sacrifice and electronic sheep to them or something.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by maximus »

bulletmeat wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:43 pm
Lurker wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:06 pm
That said, I do like the idea behind advantage / disadvantage, especially as you said rewarding them for role playing etc. But as someone with horrid dice luck … I prefer bonusses of plusses (and the more plusses the better to overcome my dice god's curse).
You may just need to try a different program. And if you still have that problem then the interweb gods are against you my friend. You need to sacrifice and electronic sheep to them or something.
Based on history, I don't think a different program is going to help Lurker... :D

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Captain_K »

these "random dice" are sometimes not random in nature it seems to me too. we use the CKG rule for d6 luck points at the beginning of every game, I always roll a 1, OK not always, but I would bet more than 30% of the time, enough that its a running joke.

Similarly our CK kept nat 20 our party in fight after fight and in FG that is 2x damage and we were getting killed. In the last big fight his "big boss" failed all sorts of stuff with 1s... so it seems to be and may be kind of not so random.

Having said that, get a dedicated overhead camera or cell phone on a dice tower and be allowed to roll some there?
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Lurker »

maximus wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:40 pm
bulletmeat wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:43 pm
Lurker wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:06 pm
That said, I do like the idea behind advantage / disadvantage, especially as you said rewarding them for role playing etc. But as someone with horrid dice luck … I prefer bonusses of plusses (and the more plusses the better to overcome my dice god's curse).
You may just need to try a different program. And if you still have that problem then the interweb gods are against you my friend. You need to sacrifice and electronic sheep to them or something.
Based on history, I don't think a different program is going to help Lurker... :D
Rgr that :lol:

As for video of dice tower, when I run we all do theater of the mind and roll real dice and just say what we got. Luckily we Monday Night Ne'er-do-Wells are a trustable lot.

normally it is at least a little better on me rolling real dice, normally. Last night however ... I made some good rolls (but I tended to cheat on the odds and hedge my bets by for the most part doing things I had big bonuses on sooooo even a low roll still squeaked by on as a success). However, it wasn't my rolls that were surprising, it was the saves that the monsters and big bad guy (well bad girl) failed against me. Who would have thought a lowly 1st level spell of sound burst followed by a lightning bolt would have crippled the BBG and her minion hags ... have to love it when the DM bolos all those saves ! :mrgreen:
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Julian Grimm »

A brief list of what I remember using in the past at various times that are not added spells or monsters:

D20 style attribute modifiers

Advantage/Disadvantage

Target Number system instead of SIEGE

Spell Points

I'm sure there's more but I cannot recall right now.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

We're experimenting with the "action dice" from DCC. Essentially this gives more attacks or character actions at higher levels, but the second one is usually on a lower die on the dice chain. So a 5th level fighter technically gets two attacks, but the second is on a d14, rather than a d20. Players like it and seems to be working fine after using it for three sessions so far.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by mostrojoe »

jahydin wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:42 am
I really like the Advantage/Disadvantage 5E mechanic and think it works really well for skill checks. For example, if a character mentions spending a lot of down town at the local pub, granting him Advantage to his CHR check the next time he needs some information is a fun way of rewarding them.
While I own the D&D 5E, I think I've never read it with attention. I do not remeber this system.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

As is well-known around here, I loathe pretty much everything 5e, but as I recall, with advantage/disadvantage you simply roll 2d20 and take the better or worse result depending upon whether you have advantage or disadvantage. Other games, like Shadow of the Demon Lord, have adopted variations of this mechanic. Personally, I don't care for it. Let the dice fall where they may.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Julian Grimm »

Persimmon wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:01 pm
As is well-known around here, I loathe pretty much everything 5e, but as I recall, with advantage/disadvantage you simply roll 2d20 and take the better or worse result depending upon whether you have advantage or disadvantage. Other games, like Shadow of the Demon Lord, have adopted variations of this mechanic. Personally, I don't care for it. Let the dice fall where they may.
To me it's a faster way of adding a modifier to a die roll. Instead of a situational +/- X I can say roll advantage in a favorable situation and Disadvantage in unfavorable ones and leave the math at home.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

Persimmon wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:01 pm
As is well-known around here, I loathe pretty much everything 5e, but as I recall, with advantage/disadvantage you simply roll 2d20 and take the better or worse result depending upon whether you have advantage or disadvantage. Other games, like Shadow of the Demon Lord, have adopted variations of this mechanic. Personally, I don't care for it. Let the dice fall where they may.
It's easier to roll one die and add or subtract from it. I mean no one should have any trouble adding or subtracting small numbers on their head. It also gives a GM control by fine tuning odds. Advantage/disadvantage is clumsy and allows for no thought to odds.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Hakdov »

One thing I'd probably steal from 5e is to replace giving humans an extra prime with giving them +1 to every stat instead.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Fizz »

Grandpa wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 11:04 pm
Persimmon wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:01 pm
As is well-known around here, I loathe pretty much everything 5e, but as I recall, with advantage/disadvantage you simply roll 2d20 and take the better or worse result depending upon whether you have advantage or disadvantage. Other games, like Shadow of the Demon Lord, have adopted variations of this mechanic. Personally, I don't care for it. Let the dice fall where they may.
It's easier to roll one die and add or subtract from it. I mean no one should have any trouble adding or subtracting small numbers on their head. It also gives a GM control by fine tuning odds. Advantage/disadvantage is clumsy and allows for no thought to odds.
Advantage/disadvantage changes the distribution of results significantly.

Consider, if you add +X to your roll, then the range of values is 1+X to 20+X, each with a 5% chance of being rolled. However, with advantage the range of values is still 1-20, but the odds of rolling a 1 is only 0.25%, with each possible result increasing in probability by 0.5%, up to 9.75% for a 20. Basically, advantage makes it very unlikely you'll mess up your roll, and much more likely to get a critical success.

I'm not saying advantage is better than a static bonus, or vice versa. They're two different tools, and either may be appropriate depending on the situation.


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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Ancalagon »

Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:34 am
One thing I'd probably steal from 5e is to replace giving humans an extra prime with giving them +1 to every stat instead.
Greetings, Hakdov. Welcome to the boards and may your zombies remain intact.

One of the features I like the most about C&C is that humans have 3 primes! 8-)
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

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Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:34 am
One thing I'd probably steal from 5e is to replace giving humans an extra prime with giving them +1 to every stat instead.
Hakdov, welcome

I agree with you on the Humans get extra into their stats . I house ruled it that they get d4 +2 points to add where wanted - to make it a little random, but also give the player a little more control at the same time.

However, I give all races / cultures 3 primes not 2.

My homebrew is a very Tolkien flavor and each race / culture has different benefits, and I'm not overly concerned about keeping all races / cultures balanced. I do try to keep any one being too overly powerful.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

Ancalagon wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 2:27 am
Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:34 am
One thing I'd probably steal from 5e is to replace giving humans an extra prime with giving them +1 to every stat instead.
Greetings, Hakdov. Welcome to the boards and may your zombies remain intact.

One of the features I like the most about C&C is that humans have 3 primes! 8-)
Agreed! But in my campaign only demi-humans can multi-class so that counters the three primes of humans, though said demi-humans obviously cannot choose any of their primes since one comes from each class. But I do think it's a cool little feature that helps differentiate humans. We also keep class restrictions for demi-humans.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

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Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:34 am
One thing I'd probably steal from 5e is to replace giving humans an extra prime with giving them +1 to every stat instead.
Naw, the range of the ability scores is assumed to be for humans. THEY are the norm. Other races are compared AGAINST that norm. THAT is the core rational behind ability scores in D&D (and its clones.) Humans have always been given advantage for being more flexible. In 1st it was that they could be any class and weren't capped as to level. In C&C it is that they get more designated as prime. I wouldn't throw out a core paradigm that runs through the entire history of the game.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Hakdov »

Grandpa wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:56 pm
Naw, the range of the ability scores is assumed to be for humans. THEY are the norm. Other races are compared AGAINST that norm. THAT is the core rational behind ability scores in D&D (and its clones.) Humans have always been given advantage for being more flexible. In 1st it was that they could be any class and weren't capped as to level. In C&C it is that they get more designated as prime. I wouldn't throw out a core paradigm that runs through the entire history of the game.
True, but the problem I have with this is that with ability modifiers for demihumans, there is a very strong reason to play them due to min-maxing. Especially so in a game with no racial class restrictions or level limits. Why play a human when a demihuman is almost always going to be a better choice for most classes? I don't think an extra prime is enough to balance this out.

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Fizz »

Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:50 pm
True, but the problem I have with this is that with ability modifiers for demihumans, there is a very strong reason to play them due to min-maxing. Especially so in a game with no racial class restrictions or level limits. Why play a human when a demihuman is almost always going to be a better choice for most classes? I don't think an extra prime is enough to balance this out.
I think that depends on the class. For some classes that have reliance on several abilities, that third prime is important. Consider rangers: strength is their required prime (they're warriors), but have several abilities based on dexterity and wisdom. Similarly thieves (rogues) have abilities based on dexterity, intelligence, wisdom.

Now, some people house-rule that class abilities are always treated as prime. I personally don't do that for the very reason you describe- it reduces the importance of primes too much. (And doing so also reduces the variety of characters.)

But remember that a prime is an effective +6. A bonus of +6 to any attempted task with an entire attribute is not a trivial advantage. Not everything that characters will attempt are defined by class abilities. So it will make humans generally more flexible when the unexpected arises.

That said, i don't think you'll break anything by using the 5E rule. C&C is meant to be tweaked, so do what's best for your group.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! :)


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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Persimmon »

I do think the extra prime is enough to balance, but, as I noted, I also impose class restrictions on demi-humans, generally restricting them to the "typical" classes listed in the PHB. I used to impose level limits too, but I finally ditched that. If it's an ABP class, I rule off the cuff whether it's okay for a demi-human race. I think elf and halfling archers are no brainers. A dwarf rune mark or battle priest makes good sense too. As in AD&D, anyone can be a thief. We don't really use any of the other ABP classes.
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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Hakdov »

Fizz wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 5:19 pm
But remember that a prime is an effective +6. A bonus of +6 to any attempted task with an entire attribute is not a trivial advantage. Not everything that characters will attempt are defined by class abilities. So it will make humans generally more flexible when the unexpected arises.

That said, i don't think you'll break anything by using the 5E rule. C&C is meant to be tweaked, so do what's best for your group.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! :)


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True, thinking of it that way does make it seem more balanced.

Thanks!

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Re: Rules that not in C&C. Could they be part of it?

Post by Grandpa »

Hakdov wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:50 pm

True, but the problem I have with this is that with ability modifiers for demihumans, there is a very strong reason to play them due to min-maxing. Especially so in a game with no racial class restrictions or level limits. Why play a human when a demihuman is almost always going to be a better choice for most classes? I don't think an extra prime is enough to balance this out.
Compared to loosing a +6 bonus to all attribute checks with one characteristic (having 2 instead of 3 prime stats as a demi-human) the small demi-human stat bonus pales.

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