Simple SIEGE

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jahydin
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Simple SIEGE

Post by jahydin »

I love Castles and Crusades, but wanted simpler SIEGE mechanics that mimicked AD&D a bit more. My three goals were to get rid of CLs, give classes a better chance to succeed at their "skills", and allow progression similar to AD&D. After a ton of playtesting, I think I finally landed on something I really like and wanted to share.

Calculating Target Numbers(TNs):
First, I only use a Challenge Base(CB) of 15 that goes down by 1 every even level for all checks. So A level 6 character would have a CB of 12.

Next, I use the Tertiary Attributes optional rule from the CKG to modify the CB for each attribute. -3 for Prime, +0 for Neutral, +3 non-prime. This is also modified by the attribute bonus of course. So if our level 6 character above was 16 Dex Prime, their Dex TN would be 7 for all Dex checks.

So far this is pretty close to RAW, but I love having all the TNs pre-calculated on the character sheet without any need for CLs or math. Just roll higher than the listed TN and you succeed. Easy! Also, by it steadily getting better as you level, characters get progressively better Saving Throws similar to AD&D.

Class Features/Skills:
In order to distinguish classes features/skills better, I add one of three tags to each one:

Exclusive[X]: This can only be used by this class. Example: Barbarian's Intimidation(CON)[X].
Hard[H]: This skill is rolled as normal for the class, but all other classes must attempt it at 2d20 and take the lowest result (5E Disadvantage). Example: Ranger Tracking(WIS)[H]
Easy[E]: This skill is attempted with 2d20 and taking the highest result (5E Advantage). All other classes can attempt normally. Further, if the first d20 rolled is a success, it's considered extraordinary (usually detailed in the description). Example: Rogue Listen(WIS)[E]. Extraordinary success lets you hear sounds seemingly impossible, like a cat's purr.

I have a list of every feature/skill with [C,H,E], but I think it's fun for every CK to decide these on their own. Also, to be creative and add their own to classes. For instance, I gave fighters Bend Bars/Lift Gates(STR)[E] and Assassins, Rogues, and Monks Acrobatics(DEX)[E].

Also, given the circumstances, it's easy to slide from Hard->Normal->Easy rolls. So a particularly treacherous cliff would be a normal roll for a Rogue and a Hard roll for a Cleric.


Monsters:
Monsters save CBs are 12 or 15 depending on their resistances, and like characters, this goes down by one for every even level(HD). Again, making it closer to AD&D.
Example: A 6HD Basilisk's physical save is 9 and its mental save is 12.

Although I use the listed "P or M" as a guideline, I do change it when it makes sense. Like a slow, lumbering "P" monster goes from 12 to 15 for a DEX save.

Feedback and Ideas:
So far this has been going really well for me, but my characters are only around level 3. Curious what everyone's thoughts are. Any glaring issues I'm missing? Also, if this sparks any other ideas I'd love to hear them.

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bulletmeat
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by bulletmeat »

If you want to keep closer to AD&D while keeping it simple I would do this:
Prime Save Target = 13, non-prime Save Target = 18. Every even level the prime target goes down by one (2nd. 4th, etc.) Every odd level after 1st the non-prime goes down by one. So at the end of the day (12-13th level) you have 7 prime save target, 12 non-prime target.
Add modifiers as you see fit. This covers all spells & spell like abilities. Monsters follow the same suit until level 20. There is stays the same but add spell resistance or immunity to certain spells for demi-god level challeges.
Keep other non-magic challenges as normal (Level/HD + att mod + prime bonus or whatever).
Me: "THE CAKE IS A LIE! THERE IS NO SPOON! WHAT IS THE RIDDLE OF STEEL?!"
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jahydin
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by jahydin »

That's a neat way of doing it too. Looks like our numbers would be about the same.

I really like using Tertiary Attributes though. The extra variety it adds to characters is nice, especially demi-humans.

I have moved to 13, 16, 19 for my TNs however. I like how at LV 20 they end up being 3, 6, and 9. Which also so happens to be the numbers I use as hard caps. So a LV 12 character with a +4 bonus will already be at their peak save.

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bulletmeat
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by bulletmeat »

Sounds reasonable. I've always been on the fence when it comes to Tertiary attributes. I always felt that it negated some of the 'specialty' certain classes have in their specific abilities but never really tried it.

I also played around w/your idea of lowering the targets also, at least on paper. I kept it going down by one per level, but that is because mortals can only get to level 12 through training. Levels afterward would have to be by divine quest (something your god(s) want to see you worthy of) up to about 15 and then 16+ would be to obtain demi-god hood by some artifact or secret knowledge (similar to immortal quest from basic). Any checks from those types of challenges, such as 20+ HD monsters or level 15+ threats, are considered supernatural and gain a +5 to difficulty (so 18 P, 23 N-P).

Never tried it out but would like to, maybe one day...
Me: "THE CAKE IS A LIE! THERE IS NO SPOON! WHAT IS THE RIDDLE OF STEEL?!"
Wife: "...I just want to know what you want for dinner."

jahydin
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by jahydin »

bulletmeat wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:34 pm
Sounds reasonable. I've always been on the fence when it comes to Tertiary attributes. I always felt that it negated some of the 'specialty' certain classes have in their specific abilities but never really tried it.
I agree. That's why I also brought in the ADV/DIS mechanics as well. Being able to roll an extra die really helps those classes shine with their respected abilities.

I like your ideas with the levels. I plan with level 20 in mind as an end goal, but truth be told I've never played a C&C campaign over 4th. Just not enough time.

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Captain_K
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by Captain_K »

Your game, play it your way.. but it seems a total retooling. No level of the opponent taken away so when high level characters go against each other they always have low saves... aka one almost always makes ones save.

Do not get me wrong, I have a hard time with the save for fireball goes down based on level of caster??? or the save for a mechanical trap goes down if its reset by a higher level thief or assassin... well, more for the latter than the former as a mech engr and not a mage.

but your system basically returns to tables and charts and predetermined old DnD... cool if that is what you want, but it is not CnC SEIGE anymore.

I am the first to tell folks a thief moves silently (utterly) and he can climb shear walls with no gaps, a fighter makes noise when trying to be quiet and has no hope to climb much more than a ladder in plate mail. I like keeping their class abilities to those classes and no to the others. Are you doing that here too?

Very significant effort and change, it will work, you're using it, just state you've scrapped SEIGE.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

jahydin
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by jahydin »

Captain_K wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:03 pm
Your game, play it your way.. but it seems a total retooling. No level of the opponent taken away so when high level characters go against each other they always have low saves... aka one almost always makes ones save.

but your system basically returns to tables and charts and predetermined old DnD... cool if that is what you want, but it is not CnC SEIGE anymore.
Thanks for the response!

Old D&D saves is what I was going for. I think there are a lot of cool adventures coming out of the OSR spaces, so wanted the system to better match.

I don't think what I've done is a total retooling though. The math is still the same; it's just another way of looking at it. The only major departures are characters getting better every even level and ignoring CLs. Take them out and I'm still just running SEIGE (with an optional rule from the CKG).

In regards to getting better at every even level: For most campaigns I don't see this as a major change. A Level 8 party would only be getting a +3 for instance; helpful, but not significant. As for really high level (12-20), Prime saves will be made quite often (they earned it!), but Secondary will never get better than 75% chance of save and Non-Prime 60%, so failed saves will still be happening. (Note: these were additions mentioned in one of my replies here).

As for ignoring CLs: For most skill checks this wouldn't change much since the CL is usually around the character's Level and therefor cancel out. For saves though, this does change quite a bit when facing off against high HD opponents. I like the though of my Level 20 Rogue having a good shot dodging the 34 HD Red Dragon's breath. For those that dislike that though, CLs could still apply to Saves as normal while keeping everything else mentioned. The player would just need to roll the die and let you know the difference - that's the CL is beats.
Captain_K wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:03 pm
I am the first to tell folks a thief moves silently (utterly) and he can climb shear walls with no gaps, a fighter makes noise when trying to be quiet and has no hope to climb much more than a ladder in plate mail. I like keeping their class abilities to those classes and no to the others. Are you doing that here too?
Yes. Not as harsh though. For me:

The Rogue Move Silently(DEX)[X] - only Rouge has a chance to be perfectly quiet. If failed, Rogue gets judged the same as everyone else for success (using the same common sense method you described).

The rogue Climbing skill would: Climb(DEX)[E]. So for average challenge climbs, the Rogue would roll with Advantage (2d20, keep the highest); everyone else would roll normally. A full breakdown though would be:
  • Impossible- Rouge rolls Disadvantage (2d20, keep lowest), no one else can attempt.
  • Hard - Rogue rolls normally, everyone else with Disadvantage.
  • Average - Rogue rolls with Advantage, everyone else normally.
  • Easy - Rouge succeeds automatically, everyone else rolls with Advantage.
For those in heavy armor though, you could rule they roll one step worse if you like. That would make average climbs: Advantage for Rogue, normal for everyone else, Disadvantage for heavy armor users.

Advantage/Disadvantage is pretty fun to implement, just need to be consistent.

jahydin
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Re: Simple SIEGE

Post by jahydin »

Thanks to some back and forth on another forum, I was able to rewrite my rules a bit more clearer, so thought I'd add them here too...
Calculating Target Numbers(TNs):
First, I only use a Challenge Base(CB) of 16 that goes down by 1 every EVEN level for the TNs of all checks. So A level 6 character would have a TN of 13.

Next, I use the Tertiary Attributes optional rule from the CKG (Humans choose 3 Prime, 2 Secondary, and one Non-Prime; demi-humans choose 2 Prime, 2 Secondary, 2 Non-Prime.) to modify the TN by -3 for Prime, +0 for Secondary, +3 for Non-prime.

TN is then further modified by the attribute bonus/penalty. So if our level 6 character above was 16 Dex Prime, their Dex TN would be 8 for all Dex checks.
  • (16(Base) - 3(Prime) -3(Level 6) - 2(Dex bonus) = 8).
Minimums! No matter the attribute/class/race bonus, minimum are TNs: Prime: 3, Neutral: 6, Non-Prime: 9.

I like having all the TNs pre-calculated on the character sheet without any need for CLs or math. Just roll equal or higher than the listed TN and you succeed. Easy! Also, by it steadily getting better as you level, characters get progressively better Saving Throws similar to AD&D.

Attribute Checks:
When an attribute check needs to be made, the CK takes into consideration a character's class/race/background and chooses one of the three difficulties to determine how the roll is made:
  • Easy: This check is made with Advantage (2d20, keep highest).
  • Normal: This check is rolled normally.
  • Hard: This check is made with Disadvantage (2d20, keep lowest).
Selecting Difficulty:
Normal is the default. As most checks needed assume moderate risk and class features/skills describe what Normal difficulty entails, most checks made during a session will be Normal.

Easy is appropriate when the task at hand is easier than what a character can accomplish with a Normal roll.
  • For example, climbing a cliff with adequate hand-holds would be a Normal challenge for most classes, but Easy for a Rouge/Assassin since they can Normally climb much harder thanks to their Climb skill.
  • Easy may also be chosen do to circumstances decreasing the difficulty of what normally would be a Normal roll. For instance, if the cliff above had more than adequate hand-holds, it would be an Easy roll for most characters (and an automatic success for a Rouge/Assassin per CK's judgement).
Hard is appropriate when the task at hand requires skill/expertise beyond the character (i.e., another class's feature/skill).
  • For example, it would be Hard for a Cleric to track a group of goblins since that would be a Normal task for a Ranger who is specialized in it.
  • Hard may also be chosen do to circumstances increasing the difficulty of what normally would be a Normal roll. For instance, if the Ranger above had to track a single goblin through bad weather (and an impossible task for other classes, per CK's judgement).
  • It is also important to note that the CK can rule that a particular task is just impossible for that character. For instance, a Barbarians intimidate may only be attempted by Barbarians.
Monsters:
Monsters Saves use 16 or 19 depending on their resistances, and like characters, this goes down by one for every EVEN level(HD) (Minimum TNs 6 and 9). Again, making it closer to AD&D.
  • Example: A 6HD Basilisk's physical save is 13 and a mental save is 16.
Although I use the listed "P or M" as a guideline, I do change it when it makes sense. Like a slow, lumbering "P" monster goes from 16 to 19 for a DEX save.

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