Magic Battles

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AntiquarianAspirant
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Magic Battles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

I am having difficulty wrapping my head around how the Magic Battles, as described in the Adventurer's Backpack, are supposed to work. The example given seems to contradict Troll Lord's own rules, as the rules imply that if you lose initiative vs another caster, you fail at defending against their spell, but the example has the protagonist caster trying to counteract a Magic Missile with a Shield, and in the example the protagonist loses initiative... But the enemy caster decides to change what spell they're casting anyway. What gives? Am I misreading something?

The rules also seem to imply that if you decide to counter-attack against the enemy caster, what you're doing is trying to disrupt their casting. Considering you're taking a -2 to initiative to do so, why wouldn't I just try to win initiative normally, and then for my action tell the DM that I'm readying an action to try and blast the enemy as THEY are casting?

It seems to me that things would be much simpler if you just ruled that a caster could make their Wisdom/Intelligence roll to identify a spell being cast as an enemy is casting the spell, and you could use a reactive action- in the same manner as Evade or Dodge- to try and get a defensive spell in place to mitigate the enemy spell, perhaps with some sort of SIEGE check to see if your reflexes and casting are quick enough to make it happen.

I love the idea of proper magic battles, and I'm delighted to see Troll Lord come out with these rules, but either I'm not understanding them right or they seem a bit strange to me. Has anyone used them in practice who could clear it up for me?

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

Don't try to make sense of them. Use the combat rules from the PHB. They cover everything needed for two spell casters to fight each other.

AntiquarianAspirant
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

Oh? How so?

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

AntiquarianAspirant wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:38 pm
Oh? How so?
How not? Spell casting in combat rules are in the PHB. Have you read the C&C combat rules??? :o

AntiquarianAspirant
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

I am aware of the base rules for it, but they don't really give me the feeling of Gandalf struggling with Saruman or Rand al'Thor fighting Ba'alzamon. I like what the Magic Battle rules seem to be getting at, more of a fluid and reactive struggle between two casters that allows for a sort of sorcerous parry and riposte.

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

AntiquarianAspirant wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:13 am
I am aware of the base rules for it, but they don't really give me the feeling of Gandalf struggling with Saruman or Rand al'Thor fighting Ba'alzamon.
That's because C&C doesn't have outsider immortal/good Angel class (Gandalf) & immortal/evil fallen angel class. You are confusing classes with combat systems. Mortals don't have access to that type of innate power and magic. They have far more limited and stilted power. Immortal, god like entities aren't bound by limited spells, memorizing, limited times/day. They use raw magical power that they shape to their will and not needing to us specific spells. Thought they could.

You may want to check PF2. It might have some Uber immortal builds like that.

AntiquarianAspirant
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

I'm definitely talking about the combat system. I like that C&C has solid choices for reacting to the enemy's action, not all games I've played or even ones I've liked have those. I like that the way it handles charging makes setting a weapon against a charge actually possible to do without reading the enemy's mind and praying they don't change their action because they see you using your action to set against them. I like that Evade and Dodge exist as panic buttons that can be used out of turn if you really, really just need to not get pulped for this one round. Clearly someone at Troll Lord saw room for the same responsiveness with casters or they wouldn't have written the Magic Battle rules.

Also, good sir if I was going to play a different system I'd play Savage Worlds, I'm looking for dynamic play, not munchkinery. I got that all out of my system playing godwizards in 3.5, years ago. :)

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

AntiquarianAspirant wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:14 pm
I'm definitely talking about the combat system. I like that C&C has solid choices for reacting to the enemy's action, not all games I've played or even ones I've liked have those. I like that the way it handles charging makes setting a weapon against a charge actually possible to do without reading the enemy's mind and praying they don't change their action because they see you using your action to set against them. I like that Evade and Dodge exist as panic buttons that can be used out of turn if you really, really just need to not get pulped for this one round. Clearly someone at Troll Lord saw room for the same responsiveness with casters or they wouldn't have written the Magic Battle rules.
What CAN'T you do with the PHB rules?

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Re: Magic Battles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

Not much. But it's nice to get some ideas for how to implement this or that. It's why I love the CKG so much.

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Captain_K
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Captain_K »

Shsh... do not tell my PCs, but I'm going to have two illusionists "sling mud" at each other via prestidigitation one sends an illusion of a ball of mud at the other... they make a roll and can catch, control, change and send back... the looser get's muddy or wet or whatever effect was just sent and they failed.... the question is, will it be INT saves back and forth? Thoughts?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:39 pm
Shsh... do not tell my PCs, but I'm going to have two illusionists "sling mud" at each other via prestidigitation one sends an illusion of a ball of mud at the other... they make a roll and can catch, control, change and send back... the looser get's muddy or wet or whatever effect was just sent and they failed.... the question is, will it be INT saves back and forth? Thoughts?
Saves vs. Wizard and Illusionist magic is Int unless otherwise stated I believe.

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Captain_K
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Captain_K »

I fully agree INT is the obvious choice but then it becomes INT prime and level vs the other INT print and level plus some basic luck... would the more charismatic illusionist get an edge? or would the more WISe one have a bonus.... just trying to see a duel of two equals (aka two illusionist) have a secondary attribute that would come into play...
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Kayolan
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Kayolan »

Captain_K wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:40 pm
I fully agree INT is the obvious choice but then it becomes INT prime and level vs the other INT print and level plus some basic luck... would the more charismatic illusionist get an edge? or would the more WISe one have a bonus.... just trying to see a duel of two equals (aka two illusionist) have a secondary attribute that would come into play...
I would say no, only level and intelligence would come into play. It might be tempting to start adding in other attribute bonuses for saves but that could easily turn into a slippery slope. I'd keep it simple.

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Grandpa
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Re: Magic Battles

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:40 pm
just trying to see a duel of two equals (aka two illusionist) have a secondary attribute that would come into play...
No because then what about being Wise enough to see through the spell, etc? No, Int is what determines how well one resists that type of magic. There's no real basis to add other attributes to the saves.

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