The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

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Big Ulf
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The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Big Ulf »

Talking PHB...one small complaint I have about it is the 'filler' Illusionist spells that are in there, clearly just to either have fun or to make sure there's an even 20 or 12 number of spells.

Say you roll randomly for spells every level or two, like my character does (to encourage use of spells you wouldn't normally think of taking).

Some of the ones that TLG put in there are pretty silly and are just more specific uses of a Major Image or Charm Person kind of thing.

e.g. 3rd level "Doubled Treasure"....the same complexity to cast as "Invisibility Sphere (10 ft)", apparently.

and 4th level: "Treasure Hoard" or "Phantasmal Killer"? the same, really?

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Grandpa
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Grandpa »

Different spells of the same level are not supposed to be the "same". I'm not sure you are communicating what you intended to... Complexity cannot be determined that easily. It is magic and unless you know the underlying "physics" you can only guess.

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Captain_K
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Captain_K »

Illusionist as always been either "too weak or weird" for most folks or "too powerful" for a few... never had anyone say Illusionist is perfectly paired next to the mage...
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Big Ulf
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Big Ulf »

Hey gang, I think my point is there seem to be spells in certain levels iust because TLG wanted to get a certain number of spells listed.

If they just listed 12 spells per level for 1-5 and say 10 spells per level for 6-9, we’d have a lot less filler spells like “Doubled Treasure” that no one is going to take.

With a lower number of spells and emphasis on players creating their own new spells. It would be a nicer PHB.

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Kayolan
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Kayolan »

Big Ulf wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:22 am
Hey gang, I think my point is there seem to be spells in certain levels iust because TLG wanted to get a certain number of spells listed.

If they just listed 12 spells per level for 1-5 and say 10 spells per level for 6-9, we’d have a lot less filler spells like “Doubled Treasure” that no one is going to take.

With a lower number of spells and emphasis on players creating their own new spells. It would be a nicer PHB.
Look at the 1st-3rd printings of the PHB and you'll see that those "filler" spells aren't there. They were added in the 4th printing and on for exactly that reason, to fill up the list so that they had the same amount of spells that wizards have.

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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Lord Dynel »

Kayolan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:21 am
Look at the 1st-3rd printings of the PHB and you'll see that those "filler" spells aren't there. They were added in the 4th printing and on for exactly that reason, to fill up the list so that they had the same amount of spells that wizards have.
True. My table doesn't use those filler spells - well, the illusionist itself isn't used very often...but I digress - and we mostly stick with the 3rd printing list of illusionist spells. There needs to be a lot of buy-in from the CK for an illusionist to reach its full potential, too, and I think the one thing that those filler spells did was bring a more tangible contribution from the class. I think, however, at the expense of its flavor. More spells that did real damage and healing spells lessened the illusionist, in my opinion, or veered it off its original intent (YMMV, of course). I houseruled temporary hit point spells (ala False Life from 3rd edition D&D) to cover "healing," which I think meshes very well and maintains the flavor of the class, while dumping most of the new spells that came to the class with the 4th printing.
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Captain_K
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Captain_K »

OK, so yes, healing for the Illusionist was a huge departure... it make sense, I can almost buy in, but I feel like some one wanting believe that genocide is a reasonable response to a cultural problem.. the illusionist was a specialist at best, not a equivalent to the mage, and it surely is not a cleric...
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Big Ulf
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Big Ulf »

Kayolan wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:21 am

Look at the 1st-3rd printings of the PHB and you'll see that those "filler" spells aren't there. They were added in the 4th printing and on for exactly that reason, to fill up the list so that they had the same amount of spells that wizards have.
Interesting point, thanks for the info. I just got into C&C after years of looking for a version of AD&D that felt leaner, and found my magic...so really the 6th/7th printings are the only ones I've looked at in any detail.

I'm playing an Illusionist right now, and folks are right as they were with AD&D illusionists...it takes a good synergy between player and CK, who are both willing to 'go there' with the spirit of the character and its abilities, to make it work. But man, I love it. When many spells come, they're always reinforcing that imagination and fun are why this game exists in the first place.

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Kayolan
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Kayolan »

As an aside, Castles & Crusades Classic doesn't have the illusionist.

JShan101
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by JShan101 »

Eh they could come in handy for some role playing... Spell lists can either be filled only with "useful" spells and we can all just assume magic users don't have for petty effects, or you can write to create a fuller world for them. I could see a rogue/illusionist using Double Treasure to cheat someone out of their share of loot...

But, yeah, there will always be unloved spells no one bothers with, players being players...

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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Grandpa »

JShan101 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:28 pm
Eh they could come in handy for some role playing... Spell lists can either be filled only with "useful" spells and we can all just assume magic users don't have for petty effects, or you can write to create a fuller world for them. I could see a rogue/illusionist using Double Treasure to cheat someone out of their share of loot...
At 1 day/level duration Double treasure would be great for an illusionist buying twice as much stuff as they could afford. It is like having twice as much money as you really have. If a player couldn't find that useful at times I'd say the player is a bit daft.

In addition using the "filler" spells successfully against PCs tends to give them ideas on how to use them. E.g. the PCs have finished the job they were hired to do by the town elders. (cleaning out the Orc raiders or something) and are paid the 1,000 G.P. owed. They ride 2 days to the nearby larger town and start buying equipment. After being 3 days in the town they find that they have already spent all their gold! That went faster than they thought and they don't have much to show for it.

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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Captain_K »

One way to have more spells is to enlarge your spells in memory, or you could cast from, but keep the spells per day limits. Our group does that as a house rule, 1.5 x the spells per day in memory, spells per day cast and those cast do not wipe memory... "spell slots" and all clerics can convert any level spell to healing of that HD... so all casters have more breath to choose from (those silly spells with limited use) while keep the power about the same in qty.
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Lurker »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:25 pm
JShan101 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:28 pm
Eh they could come in handy for some role playing... Spell lists can either be filled only with "useful" spells and we can all just assume magic users don't have for petty effects, or you can write to create a fuller world for them. I could see a rogue/illusionist using Double Treasure to cheat someone out of their share of loot...
At 1 day/level duration Double treasure would be great for an illusionist buying twice as much stuff as they could afford. It is like having twice as much money as you really have. If a player couldn't find that useful at times I'd say the player is a bit daft.

In addition using the "filler" spells successfully against PCs tends to give them ideas on how to use them. E.g. the PCs have finished the job they were hired to do by the town elders. (cleaning out the Orc raiders or something) and are paid the 1,000 G.P. owed. They ride 2 days to the nearby larger town and start buying equipment. After being 3 days in the town they find that they have already spent all their gold! That went faster than they thought and they don't have much to show for it.
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JShan101
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by JShan101 »

Captain_K wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:33 pm
One way to have more spells is to enlarge your spells in memory, or you could cast from, but keep the spells per day limits. Our group does that as a house rule, 1.5 x the spells per day in memory, spells per day cast and those cast do not wipe memory...
Though I have no spelltossers in my game right now, this is my intent, too, particularly on the arcane side—to have magic users know the spells they know, and be able to cast them at will depending on spell slots. I prefer the idea of spellcasting being about personal energy (aka slots) versus the "Vancian" fire-and-forget style.

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Grandpa
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Re: The 'filler' Illusionist Spells...why are they there

Post by Grandpa »

JShan101 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:10 pm
this is my intent, too, particularly on the arcane side—to have magic users know the spells they know, and be able to cast them at will depending on spell slots.
As a DM I did that once about 30 years ago. Arcane casters soon become WAY overpowered and over shadowed all other classes easily. But if you are prepared it can be a nice change from having a group full of different classes.

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