Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

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Captain_K
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Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

Focusing on 1st and 2nd level spells only, do you all see spells like:
Chant, detect charm, resist fire, snake charm, and speak with animals?

I see the last two as too druidic.

detect charm could be allowed with detect magic.

Chant and Resist fire could be added or something like them that blends with what is there already..

Thoughts?
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by TheMetal1 »

Was just reading about Chant in AD&D. Playing a cleric and was looking at what options are available.

Agree that Snake and Speak should be in the Druid realm,

The thing with Chant is - I think in AD&D it was stackable with Bless and then with the 3rd level Prayer.

It gives a +1 to hit and damage, with an added +1 to hit from bless. And if Prayer is also going, that’s an additional 1 to hit and damage. Not to mention Chant and Prayer hindering Opponents wither. -1 to hit and damage for Chant and Prayer. It becomes a pretty powerful buff.

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:05 pm


I see the last two as too druidic.


Thoughts?
Those two come down from some of the oldest priest ability legends in man's recorded history. That is why they are on the cleric list..

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by serleran »

When you're only going to include a certain # of spells per class per spell level, how do you decide what you decline?

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

I was looking toward including spells that seem to have fallen off the list of cleric and druid from the old 1st or second edition.. wondering should I include them..
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by serleran »

I don't recall a "detect charm" spell in either 1st or 2nd edition PHB, but that may be faulty memory. It was likely certainly added in one or more of the supplements (very likely found in the Spell Compendiums.)

I think the "resist fire" spell was renamed in C&C -- protection from elements or something?

Anyway, if you like those spells and need them to make your game more fun or interesting, absolutely add them. Options only hurt when it leads to choice paralysis and only you can know if that's a problem for yourself or your players.

I've found, for me, that I need to start removing spells... but then, they become too bland and it confuses players since they cast "fire shape" and then tell me what it does (ie, like a sphere that explodes, aka fireball or if its more a fan of fiery fries aka burning hands with no actual limits put on it other than what they tell me and what they can do by level) so there's always some weird sort of balance between what is needed and what "should" be provided. That depends on the game, I think. And, I feel C&C has done a good job though I admit I've added spells (many of them) in the past.

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Grandpa »

serleran wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:06 pm
I don't recall a "detect charm" spell in either 1st or 2nd edition PHB, but that may be faulty memory.
Detect Charm was a AD&D 1st Ed 2nd Level Cleric spell
serleran wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:06 pm
I think the "resist fire" spell was renamed in C&C -- protection from elements or something?
Resist cold & fire were 1st and 2nd level cleric spells respectively. C&C 1st level Resist Elements. Good memory

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by serleran »

Ah, there is indeed a 2nd level "detect charm" spell in the 1st edition PHB. Wow. Completely missed that, probably because our group had very limited need for it.

If I were to include it, myself, I might consider making it a possible illusionist power. Or, a spell. Maybe level 0 for them, level 1 for clerics (and anyone else.) It is potentially powerful and ascertaining conditions is tactically beneficial.

I guess it comes down to how much "mystery" one might want. Also, if adding a "detect charm" you then need to define what, exactly, is a charm.

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Grandpa »

serleran wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:29 pm

I guess it comes down to how much "mystery" one might want. Also, if adding a "detect charm" you then need to define what, exactly, is a charm.
Yes, in 1st Ed Charm was a spell type and was listed as part of the spell description. Handy. I guess one could look at those spells and directly transfer to C&C spells of same or similar function...

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

I agree, spell or section paralysis limits players ability to act at times, but memorized spells ahead of time limits them further... can still be many at higher levels. As is we have a house rule of 1.5x your uses per day in memory, spell use does not eliminate that spell, just a use, and we let any cleric or druid convert and spell use to heal without memorizing heal..... give more breadth without adding more spells to cast each "day"...

Defining charm.. that's a fun one.

Here is one, how do you define "spells per day"... the fighter can chop bad guys day and night, but the spell caster or items are on recharge principals... many ways to deal with that... could make a nice thread...
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:31 pm
the fighter can chop bad guys day and night, but the spell caster or items are on recharge principals.
Magic users can also do melee and ranged attacks all day long. Not as effectively as a fighter but they still can and we have spent countless adventures doing just that with very low level MUs over the decades. And fighters cannot cast ANY spells per day... One must look at all facets and throw out the incorrect notion that character classes must be "balanced" as that is the road to D&D madness. Which we saw 3.x descend into. The original game, and now C&C is designed as a mixed team endeavor rather than a character class on character class gladiatorial combat scenario

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

This is true, but I still like giving all my PCs something useful to do. Plus the team is always finding places to rest to get back spells. Its a balance.
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:28 am
This is true, but I still like giving all my PCs something useful to do.
Attacking isn't "useful"???? I don't get that. Also, If you have to "give" players stuff to do because they aren't figuring out stuff like lighting something on fire to throw at the orc who is closing on the fighter you have bigger problems with your players than the rules. I've throw rocks as a caster w/o spells to help. Encourage them to THINK with the situation. Ask them what would THEY do? The MU can't stand behind the fighter poking a long spear at its opponent? If you are looking at the rules and telling the MU that he/she can't do that then you need to chuck those rules. Just saying

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

They always find something to do, but devolving every class to a support roll to physical fighting is not as eloquent as having a mage pull mana slowly from the air to cast another spell, even when out of normal spells or a cleric sacrifices their holy symbol and their consciousness to save that last failing member of the party right after the climatic big fight ends and he has no spells.

I've had mages chuck spears with amazing (aka lucky) results, but it should not be all they can do when they are "out of spells".. I like to give them many options and they can choose to chuck the rocks, poke a stick, or pull manna... and the games goes on either way.. but I have found the guy or gall that likes the mage class tends to like magic options, even when they are slow and less powerful..
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Retrogamer_Meph »

So why don't you give your players a single attack cantrip such as an Elemental Bolt. Now before immediately dismissing the idea, hear the proposed method. If you give your made an elemental bolt with the option to choose their damage type (cold, fire, lightning, magic) it gives them the option to affect various creatures that might have a resistance, something most classes cannot do. Now here is the kicker....you need to to succeed on a to hit roll and it does 1d3 damage. It never scales up.

I never liked the argument that once a mage ran out of spells they were worthless. There is plenty they can do in combat and it doesn't always have to be combat related but that is a different story. If you have a caster that feels they need more then consider this option. Keep it within the rules for 0 level spells and then they have to choose between doing potential damage with a bolt or casting that light cantrip. The most important thing to remember though is that while the player might be happy with this option, as a DM you haven't done ANYTHING to offset the balance of the game. You have given them an "elemental" bolt that they can cast up to 4 times a day, but is nothing more than a dart. Win on both side imo.
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Retrogamer_Meph »

As for adding specific spells from AD&D? There are a handful I plan to add but it will be over time. I plan to introduce them as scrolls or holy scriptures that detail long lost magics. It will be something special when the wizard finds some scroll to a lost spell that to his knowledge, he is the only one in the world with. If he decides to share that magic then I will add it to future lists. If he scribes it and never shares it with anyone, that spell will again be lost once the wizard is gone. Same with priests...some scriptures detailing some long lost boon from the gods and through research and prayer (similar to a wizard) their god will eventually grant that spell.

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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

Your idea is excellent, not because I already do just that, but because Treebore and others have that as a house rule and I got to thinking about it... seems like I should give my cleric and my mages something they can always do, rather slowly.
Big changes or house rules we use are:
1) 1.5x spells in memory, cast uses per days limits as always but does not wipe a spell just a use, repeated uses possible.
2) cures are d8/spell level used +WIS + level.
3) All classes can use "Innate Magic", casting time 2 and 50' range (like a weapon so 50' is short, 100' is medium, and 150' is long). Ranged touch attack. Damage is d3/lvl + WIS or INT bonus. Pretty good but every other round and long casting time. Each class has a special way to use it. A cleric can convert to touch with holy symbol vs undead for more damage (or a simple first aid spell), or the wizard can half the damage for an autohit or double range.

I'm toying with allowing unlimited zero level spells to all casters AND just now, letting the druid heal as much as the cleric... no more one d8 less...

PS There are limits on all the above, but I invoke them like I invoke limits on the fighter swinging his sword... special occasions when things really take far too long... major war situations which normally I do not do.
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by Captain_K »

I really should learn how to post my house rules so folks can see them...
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Re: Missing 1st Ed Cleric Spells

Post by serleran »

I have multiple types of magic-using classes. The type akin to what is in the PHB is the studious sort (wizard) and technically anyone can get their base abilities if they are smart enough or take enough time to train wizardly arts. This is somewhat similar to the class-and-a-half route except it's not that exactly.

Then, there are "native casters" which you can only be because you were born into it -- you can't (without extreme exception) just start casting magic unless you've learned it or its part of your being. This is the one that might get a cantrip of unlimited casting. I guess they'd be more like sorcerers in d20 but I don't treat them that way -- they actually have no restrictions on casting, if they can learn a spell. That means they are more like the rune mage probably, except they have a very hard time learning magic -- it is not as simple as reading some scroll and bam!

Anyway, I like having different approaches to how magic "works" since neither is at odds with the other. There's jealousy of both from each end, too.

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