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Adding level 
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Skobbit

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Post Adding level
Need a little clarity on adding character level to attribute checks. I understand that level is added to class ability checks. That being said...

Looking at CKG p 283, on Actions Against Opposing Attributes: "So if a 1st level character with dexterity as a primary attribute attempted to grab a shoe out of the orc’s hand, the CB would be 12+6 and +1 for a 19, meaning the character would have to roll a 19 or better to successfully grab it. A rogue character would add his level and attribute bonus when making this grab attempt." (Bold is my add)

Seems to me that a grab isn't a class ability, and I'd be inclined to NOT add level to this check. In the example above, are they giving the rogue his level bonus because grabbing is kind of like stealing? If it was a fighter, would they get the level bonus?

Thanks in advance!


Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:28 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
I believe you may be overthinking the text; it is simply a relevant example to show the function of the rule, not necessarily meaning the grab is a class ability or what.

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Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:19 pm
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Skobbit

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Post Re: Adding level
Okay, thanks for that, but what's the answer? Do you add level to checks for non-class ability tasks? Like jumping a pit? Seems about the same level of effort as grabbing a shoe.


Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:38 pm
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Post Re: Adding level
In general, you only even have to ask for rolls for significant actions; or in my case, when there is a chance of significant things arising if failed.

As to adding of the level, that is only for class abilities when used and the grab could be considered something akin to a pick pockets roll (snatching the pebble from their hand) type thing. Non-class/non-racial abilities would not have level added normally. There will always be exceptions to the rule that arise and times when the CK will make a determination one way or the other despite the rule. C&C is flexible like that...and it doesn't break anything by doing so.

End answer really boils down to "as you (the CK) feels is appropriate."

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Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:57 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
Add level and attribute bonuses to all checks unless the check involves an ability belonging to another class. 10th level PCs are just plain heroic. I'll post a citation to the PHB later tonight if I get a chance.

The verbiage you have quoted from the CKG looks very much wrong. Challenge base is either 12 or 18 depending on whether the attribute is prime or non-prime. It isn't something you calculate. Challenge class equals the challenge base (either 12 or 18) plus the challenge level of the thing being attempted. Typically, if a PC were trying to snatch an object from a monster's hand, you would use the monster's hit dice as the challenge level. In the case of an orc (one hit die), the challenge level would be 1 and, for a PC with dexterity prime, the challenge class should be 13. The PC would roll and add level and any attribute modifier to see if the PC is successful. The vocabulary as quoted in the original post doesn't make any sense, although maybe it has to do with a special case being discussed in the CKG.

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Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Adding level
Buttmonkey wrote:
Add level and attribute bonuses to all checks unless the check involves an ability belonging to another class. 10th level PCs are just plain heroic. I'll post a citation to the PHB later tonight if I get a chance.

The verbiage you have quoted from the CKG looks very much wrong. Challenge base is either 12 or 18 depending on whether the attribute is prime or non-prime. It isn't something you calculate. Challenge class equals the challenge base (either 12 or 18) plus the challenge level of the thing being attempted. Typically, if a PC were trying to snatch an object from a monster's hand, you would use the monster's hit dice as the challenge level. In the case of an orc (one hit die), the challenge level would be 1 and, for a PC with dexterity prime, the challenge class should be 13. The PC would roll and add level and any attribute modifier to see if the PC is successful. The vocabulary as quoted in the original post doesn't make any sense, although maybe it has to do with a special case being discussed in the CKG.


I thought the same thing at first BM. Had to pull down the CKG and look it up to check the context. The opposing monster had DEX (due to Physical?) as a prime in the full context of the example, hence adding the +6...which threw me too just reading the quote portion of the entire example.

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Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:22 pm
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Skobbit

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Post Re: Adding level
My bad on the partial quote--I didn't want to pull the focus away from the question of whether or not to add level to a non-class ability roll.

This is further complicated (for me) by this, from the PHB p16, under "Attribute Checks":
Whenever one of these checks is made a d20 is rolled by the player. Attribute and level modifiers, for class abilities only, are added to this roll, if applicable.

So, again, where grabbing a shoe from an Orc doesn't seem like a class ability, I don't see why the level would be added.

I also see your point about heroic actions for higher level characters, and agree.

But, as Googleplex said earlier, I am overthinking this.


Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:44 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
I think the quote from page 16 is in error. Contrast it with the verbiage from page 163 (8th printing) concerning Attributes & the Game:

“The player rolls a d20 and adds the character’s level and the attribute modifier of the attribute modifier of the attribute designated by the Castle Keeper.”

Also review the example of Bjorn making a strength check on page 164 (level is added to the roll).

Most importantly, read the section Adding Character Level to Checks on page 167 which makes it clear level is added except when a PC attempts another class’s ability (assuming the CK even allows the attempt).

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Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:12 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
The quoted material from the CKG is optional and contrary to the standard SIEGE rules in the PHB. I recommend ignoring it until you have experience running the SIEGE engine and only then consider modifying the system by incorporating the alternative rule from the CKG. I wish the CKG were clearer that the quoted section is an alternative approach. It would have spared the OP a lot of confusion.

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Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:29 am
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Skobbit

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Post Re: Adding level
Thank you, Buttmonkey. Clearer now. And yeah, a lot of the contrary and unclear wording in the books sets my editor brain on edge...

And now I'm off to add levels to juuuuust about everything! Much appreciated, Crusaders!


Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:55 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Adding level
I know I am late but these are the cases to add level:

1) you are making a save -- this is not an "ability check" but something like "save vs. poison or die."

2) you are making a check for a class ability you possess -- for example, if you want to pick pockets, even if Dexterity is not Prime, you still get your level (training exceeds raw ability, eventually.)

3) you are making a check for something that is not a class ability at all (something no class specifically excels at,) yet is not exactly a save -- in earlier editions of D&D-like games, this might be called the "attribute check."

4) any time the Castle Keeper tells you


Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:12 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
I could swear Steve commented somewhere confirming the bit on Page 16 of the PHB is erroneous, but I can't find it on the forums. Maybe it was on Facebook.

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Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:37 pm
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Mist Elf
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Post Re: Adding level
From the CKG, page 283:
Quote:
"The character's level is almost always added to an Attribute Check. It is an understood premise that as the characters advance in levels, they advance in experience. Their experiences, through either observation or action, have improved their skill in successfully performing actions."


Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:28 am
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Post Re: Adding level
YOUR class abilities and attribute checks add level. You do not add level for things that are outside YOUR class abilities and specific "skills or abilities". See thread on prime vs non-prime abilities... it has a nice summary table on all this. I hope to have a nice summary article on this in the next Domesday.

I just read it all (the book that is) and I think it is spot on right. First its under the heading of "actions against opposing attributes". This is key. That means what you take into account for the PC acting must also include the opponent's skills are against you. So grabbing a shoe is a DEX attribute check against an orc, no class ability going on here. So level vs level bonus and minus... then prime to do it and possibly if opponent is prime to not let you get it. In this case the example only sets out the CB and the orc is prime to not let you do it. This is only about setting what the PC needs to roll as opposed to opposing rolls.

Thief is DEX class and must be DEX prime, so challenge rating base is 12. Orc is DEX prime, so 6 points harder to get it out of his (I assume aware you're there) hand. The Orc is 1 HD. So what the thief needs to beat is 12+6+1 = 19 as we do not know what nor do we normally care the actual DEX modifier of the ORC. So the first level thief must beat the 19. Thief still gets to ADD their level and their DEX modifier. Likely the thief will have a high enough DEX for say a +2 thus the first level thief will add +3 to their roll or another way to think about it, lowers what must beat on the dice to 16. So it is logical, on a dex grab for cleanly taking an aware orc's shoe out of an orc's hand the CB could be 19 with only about a 20% chance of success. It would be like being so fast you can snatch the ball out of a dog's mouth with speed and dex only, no STR.. this is not a STR roll.

You could make it be a roll to grab the shoe with DEX, then a STR to pull it from the orc's hand... but the thief either way, is barking up the wrong tree. He should have slipped behind the orc, backstabbed it to death, then taken the shoe easily from the dead hand of the orc. You got to play to your strengths.

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Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:53 pm
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Post Re: Adding level
Captain_K wrote:
YOUR class abilities and attribute checks add level. You do not add level for things that are outside YOUR class abilities and specific "skills or abilities". See thread on prime vs non-prime abilities... it has a nice summary table on all this. I hope to have a nice summary article on this in the next Domesday.

I just read it all (the book that is) and I think it is spot on right. First its under the heading of "actions against opposing attributes". This is key. That means what you take into account for the PC acting must also include the opponent's skills are against you. So grabbing a shoe is a DEX attribute check against an orc, no class ability going on here. So level vs level bonus and minus... then prime to do it and possibly if opponent is prime to not let you get it. In this case the example only sets out the CB and the orc is prime to not let you do it. This is only about setting what the PC needs to roll as opposed to opposing rolls.

Thief is DEX class and must be DEX prime, so challenge rating base is 12. Orc is DEX prime, so 6 points harder to get it out of his (I assume aware you're there) hand. The Orc is 1 HD. So what the thief needs to beat is 12+6+1 = 19 as we do not know what nor do we normally care the actual DEX modifier of the ORC. So the first level thief must beat the 19. Thief still gets to ADD their level and their DEX modifier. Likely the thief will have a high enough DEX for say a +2 thus the first level thief will add +3 to their roll or another way to think about it, lowers what must beat on the dice to 16. So it is logical, on a dex grab for cleanly taking an aware orc's shoe out of an orc's hand the CB could be 19 with only about a 20% chance of success. It would be like being so fast you can snatch the ball out of a dog's mouth with speed and dex only, no STR.. this is not a STR roll.

You could make it be a roll to grab the shoe with DEX, then a STR to pull it from the orc's hand... but the thief either way, is barking up the wrong tree. He should have slipped behind the orc, backstabbed it to death, then taken the shoe easily from the dead hand of the orc. You got to play to your strengths.

All of this is an optional/alternate take on applying the SIEGE engine and inconsistent with how SIEGE is explained in the PHB.

I am beating this particular dead horse because you start out with "I think it is spot on right." I'm not sure if you are saying this a correct description of RAW per the PHB or it is "right" in the sense this alternate rule makes a lot of good sense and should be used as a result.

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Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:45 pm
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Post Re: Adding level
Another reason I actually dislike the CKG. It took many printings for the PHB to get the verbiage right, and make everything regarding the SIEGE ENGINE pretty clear. The same can not be said for the CKG which has not undergone any significant revisions. The CKG adds back into the conversation some muddy explanations which reverse the clarity of the recent PHBs.

But, always add in the character level/HD to all checks unless the nature of the check falls into the realm of abilities possessed by another class.

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Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:27 pm
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Ulthal

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Post Re: Adding level
Dont over think it. CnC is meant to be simple to engage in role playing not roll playing. I default to add the level in most cases. Just follow the rule of cool and move on.

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Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:42 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
I'm sorry, you are right, in the CKG it follows the rules laid out there and to me makes sense. This thread started out with comments like "the numbers in the KCG example look wrong". I was simply noting the way it was done follows the rules laid out there.

Having said that, in pure PH SEIGE check, wouldn't the only difference be that the ORC prime DEX would not be counted against the roll? I may have this wrong, but in PH you add character level but subtract opponents HD (as a modifier to the CB) to nearly all rolls. Help explain exactly where it violates the PH.

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Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:54 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
Captain_K wrote:
I'm sorry, you are right, in the CKG it follows the rules laid out there and to me makes sense. This thread started out with comments like "the numbers in the KCG example look wrong". I was simply noting the way it was done follows the rules laid out there.

Having said that, in pure PH SEIGE check, wouldn't the only difference be that the ORC prime DEX would not be counted against the roll? I may have this wrong, but in PH you add character level but subtract opponents HD (as a modifier to the CB) to nearly all rolls. Help explain exactly where it violates the PH.

You've got the right of it. BTB, RAW, the challenge level would be equal to the monster's hit dice. The monster's primes would be irrelevant.

Challenge class = Challenge Base (12 for a PC with dex prime) + Challenge Level (1 for a one hit die monster) = 13

The PC would roll a d20 and add their dex bonus (if any) and level. Success if the modified roll equals or exceeds the challenge class of 13.

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Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:19 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Adding level
I think the CKG is not intended to confuse but per the sections title, it is a nod to other version of DnD where people roll one vs the other... this is a way to take into account the abilities of the one being "rolled against" without having them actually roll.

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Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:14 am
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