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Prime vs Non-Prime
https://trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17497
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Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Prime vs Non-Prime

Ability checks have potentially three categories:
1) "Prime" because the ability references an attribute to which you have as a prime attribute, Ex. Climb (DEX)
2) "Non- Prime" because the ability references an attribute to which you DO NOT have as a prime attribute, Ex. Poison (INT)
3) "Neither" because the ability references NO attribute, Ex. Sneak Attack

I have not seen definitive values to the following ideas/rules. I'd like source and page for definitive rules.

I've heard all class abilities are treated as PRIME for the PC.. could be a house rule, can't believe I cannot find base rule in PH that is crystal clear.

To make this easy to discuss, assume the Challenge Base is 18 and we are adding +6 if its a prime.

So in this first case all three are at +6, +6, +6 to their roll and they can add their level.

Then I've heard only Prime get's +6. So then it would be +6, +0, +0? I'm betting this is closest to right.

Part of me wants to say, keep the character supreme, so +12, +6, +6.. all get at least +6 and PRIME gets to double dip.

So what is it?

I did get my working table to attach.. once we come to a reasonable conclusion on these three we can discuss the secondary skills and out of class ability and skill use...

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

in tabular form.. if I can get an image to attach.

Attachments:
Ability-Skill_Checks.JPG
Ability-Skill_Checks.JPG [ 80.67 KiB | Viewed 999 times ]

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

rest of the footnotes...

Attachments:
Skill_Check_Notes.JPG
Skill_Check_Notes.JPG [ 104.44 KiB | Viewed 998 times ]

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

I've got a nice Domesday article on abilities and skills and a sortable searchable table in excel for all abilities and skills.. if anyone wants let me know.

Also, looking for a proof reader too or tester to make sure the article is nice before submitting it.

Author:  Captain_K [ Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

no comments? Where's the team work I've grown so used to....

Author:  Captain_K [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Come on guys, I need to know how you treat prime vs non-prime abilities...or point me to the book page that makes it clear.. I cannot find it.

Author:  mmbutter [ Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Captain_K wrote:
I've heard all class abilities are treated as PRIME for the PC.. could be a house rule, can't believe I cannot find base rule in PH that is crystal clear.


It *is* crystal clear. There is no rule that says you do this, therefore you do not. It's a common house rule, however.

Author:  Captain_K [ Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

So class abilities without prime get no bonus, class abilities without a attribute, no bonus, only those with prime get +6. That said, only class abilities of all types get a level bonus so quickly that makes out of class rolls way behind. logical. I guess I had hear the house rule so many times I expected it to be there some place.

Author:  mmbutter [ Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Not hard and fast, but most class abilities use the class prime, so they nearly always get +6, +level, and whatever bonus the ability has.

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

So I'm good with prime abilities get +6 with level and class abilities without prime get only level and most classes should not get chance to get into other class abilities. But some key class abilities are without an attribute and for many they are core to the class. Do those get +6 since they are so "central" to the class? Or if it says nothing its "between" prime and not prime so some odd +3 for those without? I'm torn on that batch and per the table above it all holds together better with +0 and +6 for not prime vs prime... so just give me your thoughts on the attribute missing abilities.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm always surprised by what gets feed back and what does not.

Author:  Go0gleplex [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Clearly stated Page 163, second paragraph, right hand column, latest printing of the PHB

Author:  Fizz [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Abilities that don't list an attribute don't require Siege checks, so far as i know.

For example, a Sneak Attack provides a damage bonus; it's not an attribute check. The rogue doesn't have to try to do extra damage, he just does automatically (assuming the conditions of the sneak are met, of course). Similarly, casting magic doesn't require a check, even though they're ostensibly tied to Intelligence or Wisdom.


-Fizz

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Go0gleplex, In my PHB TLG 80106 that page and paragraph is under "determine the attribute needed" and talks about Bjorn knocking over a statue. Either I'm not sure what question you're answering or my book is different or a type-o?

Fizz, Great point, I never thought of that, I just read all the classes and when no attribute noted, no check. Only exception I found would Deflect Missiles for the Monk takes a DEX check, so that one should clearly be a (DEX) ability.

So that makes it easy. When you check primes get +6 and level, non-primes get only level. Those without an attribute need no check. Aside: Many folks house rule that non-primes are treated like primes anyway. Nice simple summary, thanks folks.

Author:  Go0gleplex [ Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

The text is plainly saying that the CK must make the determination of which attribute to use based on the situation at the time. If knocking over the statue, obviously it will be STR...though if the statue is too heavy and requires leverage, then WIS may be the appropriate Att to use. The Trolls have a habit of NOT overly defining things and leave it to the determination of whomever is running the game; in fact they almost go out of their way to avoid defining things at times. It's not a difficult concept.

Author:  dachda [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Captain_K wrote:
So I'm good with prime abilities get +6 with level and class abilities without prime get only level and most classes should not get chance to get into other class abilities. .....



This is how I run my games, and reflects my understanding of the rules. Though, by agreement of my gaming group, we are allowing our ranger elf, who picked STR and DEX as his two primes, to add +6 to his tracking role (WIS). But we agreed on this because they are adventuring in the Darkenfold forest, and continually failing tracking rolls was frustrating to both players and myself as CK. we did not give the +6 to him for the other two WIS abilities of Delay/neutralize poison, and Survival.

Author:  Captain_K [ Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

might be why many house rule all class abilities are treated as prime +6.
A possible in between could be all class abilities if not prime get a +3.

Author:  dachda [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prime vs Non-Prime

Captain_K wrote:
might be why many house rule all class abilities are treated as prime +6.
A possible in between could be all class abilities if not prime get a +3.


Could be a good compromise and certainly wont' 'break' the game in any way.

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