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Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim
https://trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17238
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Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

So where in the CnC rules does it talk about dispatching a victim who is at say -1 h.p., unconscious, magically paralyzed or held? Who can take them out in one round? Who cannot? Must you roll to hit scores? Roll damage or are they dead one per round.

I like having thieves and assassins best at throat slitting..

How about sleeping characters?

Thanks...

Author:  Go0gleplex [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

If unconscious or magically out cold....the targets are insta-kills. If sleeping normally and the attacker is not silenced or otherwise covert, the target may get a check to see if they are woken or somehow alerted to the danger...the attacker only getting the prone target bonus and/or sneak attack on their to hit. But I've not checked that to the book as of this response.

Author:  mmbutter [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

If combat is ongoing, I make them roll. However, it's AC -10 on the target (defenseless) and +8 to hit (called shot). If combat is ended, and the players are "mopping up", it's automatic.

Author:  serleran [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Why does there need to be a rule for something that seems obvious?

If the opponent is completely defenseless...

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

In a combat, with stuff going on in melee, if a player commands a big bad guy to "die" they fall to the ground "dead" for one round.. if the cleric times this action with the thief.. can the thief step in and slit its throat automatically... OR must the thief roll to hit (yep, big bonuses) and damage... I would give the thief back stab damage...

How about the say wizard stepping over the magical spell sleep on an orc, is his dagger work one dead orc per round?

Author:  Lurker [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

serleran wrote:
Why does there need to be a rule for something that seems obvious?

If the opponent is completely defenseless...



Rgr that ... hold & sleep spells should terrify anyone (yes tree still soooo thankful for you pulling Lupa into the room when he was held before the hobgoblins finished him off)

If a character or monster or npc or what ever is sleeped or held, and an opponent wishes to dispatch them ... down to 0 hp and see the thread about character death ...

Now, I would say that back when I DMed there was recompense ... if the PCs had a habit of sleep or holding monsters and then tying them up when they were defenseless, then when the table was turned the monsters would do likewise. However, if they were cold blooded killers ... they better hope the cleric was close by with a cure spell ready before death came for their miserable soul.

Now if the one being attacked is simply asleep (not through magical means) then there is a (very slim) chance so yes an attack roll with various bonuses to hit. Heck I'd say even a bound to damage it the hit is successful.

Author:  Go0gleplex [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Common sense is: If you incapacitate a victim with identifiable vital areas (ie. humanoids, animals, aberrations, etc...excluding oozes, undead, and many plants) in such a way that they are unable to defend themselves due to magical induced sleep/coma, paralysis, immobility, etc., and no other combatants are in a position to intercept, delay, or otherwise interfere, the attacking character is only required to declare their intent to administer the coup de grace to the victim which occurs immediately should the combat round be ended or upon their initiative if they themselves have not been incapacitated in some manner to prevent their announced action. No to hit roll or damage is required to kill the intended incapacitated target. (which is what we used in our 1e and 2e groups...and I still use even now.)

Most of various edition book have required a to hit roll with numerous modifiers to both hit and damage as a free type attack, though if fatal damage is not inflicted you likely end up pissing your target off something fierce, assuming they can respond to the attack. ( held person might not be able to right away per se...until the hold ends if they are still standing.) Which generated a lot of flak about the rules being somewhat counter to common sense and being ignored in favor of various house rules. (from what I've manage to look up on the subject this afternoon)

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Folks, in the old days.. we always played it as such... is there a softening of this? Say, max dice plus a second roll of damage so that quickly you kill them but not auto-kill?

Also, for historic sake... anyone recall if that's in the old PH or DMG for say old ADD? Just curious where we all "learned it"... ah old DnD tribal knowledge.

Author:  Kayolan [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Captain_K wrote:
Also, for historic sake... anyone recall if that's in the old PH or DMG for say old ADD? Just curious where we all "learned it"... ah old DnD tribal knowledge.


DMG, page 72:

An unconscious opponent can be trussed or slain in 1 round.

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Thanks, I wanted to believe we all "knew the rules" that this was not some mass assumption or tribal knowledge.

Author:  Omote [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Kayolan wrote:
Captain_K wrote:
Also, for historic sake... anyone recall if that's in the old PH or DMG for say old ADD? Just curious where we all "learned it"... ah old DnD tribal knowledge.


DMG, page 72:

An unconscious opponent can be trussed or slain in 1 round.


How about sleeping dragons, golems, Unklars?

~O

Author:  Aergraith [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

In C&C, during combat, I usually make coup-de-grace harder than after combat. If you have a lot of hit points, you may well survive the scalpel to your jugular: it might just make you mad. You certainly hit, if nothing is preventing you, but you have to do sufficient damage. When you are upright you can take unrealistic amounts of damage so I see no reason to change that because you are down.

Also, certain states besides unconscious are difficult to believe wouldn't leave you totally defenseless, but the spirit of the game lets you have some defense.

No characters yet have asked me to make it easier to coup-de-grace THEM...

I try not to use too much common sense in my games: C&C requires some downright oddball sense.

Author:  Go0gleplex [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Killing an unconscious, held, or paralyzed victim

Omote wrote:
Kayolan wrote:
Captain_K wrote:
Also, for historic sake... anyone recall if that's in the old PH or DMG for say old ADD? Just curious where we all "learned it"... ah old DnD tribal knowledge.


DMG, page 72:

An unconscious opponent can be trussed or slain in 1 round.


How about sleeping dragons, golems, Unklars?

~O

Sleeping Dragon - Dragons know of your presence the moment you step within their lair, sometimes even their territory. (per many articles on dragons) So it is very unlikely to be sleeping unless magically put there somehow. :ugeek:

General Rule of thumb: If it has vital organs that are able to be reached by the weapon being used and/or creature wielding said weapon that are vital for remaining alive, then the creature can be insta-killed, IF you manage to catch it while it is completely incapacitated and helpless. Now, if the creature has a regen ability that the PCs forget about or simply do not take precautions against the possibility, weelllll...I imagine when it recovers that creature is gonna be rather irked with some PCs. :twisted: :lol:

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