Switch to full style
Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post a reply

Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation Help?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:36 pm

Hey there,

Long time no see.

So I was looking the old Crusader Companion, specifically at the Class Creation rules and how to make their Experience Tables, and I noticed something that was either missing, or I missed.

When assembling the special abilities of a class to get their XP table, there are the Starting Abilities, which is great.

But what about the Acquired Abilities as the levels go up? I see that they say it is modified by the level, so for example;

Battlefield Dominance lv 8 xp: 6,000

I have no idea how they come to that cost!??!?!

It isn't doubling the 200 Xp of the Outstanding Ability to match level 2 to 8 (6 levels, doubling is a lot more than 6000xp), so I have NO idea how to figure this out.

Can someone please explain this to me?

Cheers!

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:04 am

I'd have to know which specific version your using to be absolutely sure, but I think the doubling only counts for what you start with for first level, plus these formula were never claiming to be 100% accurate. I just know when I tried to figure it out, years ago when Serleran first proposed these kind of numbers, that I never figured out how the numbers worked for powers gained at later levels.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:07 am

Treebore wrote:I'd have to know which specific version your using to be absolutely sure, but I think the doubling only counts for what you start with for first level, plus these formula were never claiming to be 100% accurate. I just know when I tried to figure it out, years ago when Serleran first proposed these kind of numbers, that I never figured out how the numbers worked for powers gained at later levels.


Hey there Treebore, long time no see.

I am using the old version, the one that is still on the Trolls' site I believe.

Yeah it's a bit confusing, but I want to figure it out for a crazy idea I've had.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:55 pm

I wrote the Class Construction section and I have no idea how they came up with 6,000 either :P If the authors of the core classes had a method, they didn't always follow it. If you follow the method I wrote, it would be 200 extra XP after doubling the previous level's XP. At second glance, it looks like the official way for acquired abilities is 250 XP for a standard ability, 500 for a moderate ability, 1,000 for outstanding abilities, and just some made up numbers for some of the other ones :P

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:25 pm

I'm not allowed to discuss the original calculations I provided once upon a long time ago.

I also have not looked at the Crusader's Companion since I first received it. I think it has undergone several iterations so maybe something changed; maybe not, but I had no input to the system there... Peter would answer that, and it looks like he did.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:57 pm

Peter wrote:I wrote the Class Construction section and I have no idea how they came up with 6,000 either :P If the authors of the core classes had a method, they didn't always follow it. If you follow the method I wrote, it would be 200 extra XP after doubling the previous level's XP. At second glance, it looks like the official way for acquired abilities is 250 XP for a standard ability, 500 for a moderate ability, 1,000 for outstanding abilities, and just some made up numbers for some of the other ones :P


So will the new one have a more solid math set or just repeat the previous?

I am asking with purpose naturally :)

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:05 pm

The Companion is currently being revised, so yes I will take a look at that section. I don't think it is possible to accurately come to the same numbers with any method tho. Some of them look to be pulled out of thin air. There are EXP requirement boosts in some of the classes during a level where nothing is acquired. I can get the acquired abilities closer to those numbers, but I'm not seeing why an ability that is gained later should cost more. If anything it should cost less for the wait. I may be looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the abilities are a percentage of the current level's exp.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:09 pm

Peter wrote:The Companion is currently being revised, so yes I will take a look at that section. I don't think it is possible to accurately come to the same numbers with any method tho. Some of them look to be pulled out of thin air. There are EXP requirement boosts in some of the classes during a level where nothing is acquired. I can get the acquired abilities closer to those numbers, but I'm not seeing why an ability that is gained later should cost more. If anything it should cost less for the wait. I may be looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the abilities are a percentage of the current level's exp.


Peter if you can pull this off, you will be my hero mate :)

Trust me, this is like a Holy Grail moment for me to see come to life.

Cheers!

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:25 am

AslanC wrote:
Peter wrote:The Companion is currently being revised, so yes I will take a look at that section. I don't think it is possible to accurately come to the same numbers with any method tho. Some of them look to be pulled out of thin air. There are EXP requirement boosts in some of the classes during a level where nothing is acquired. I can get the acquired abilities closer to those numbers, but I'm not seeing why an ability that is gained later should cost more. If anything it should cost less for the wait. I may be looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the abilities are a percentage of the current level's exp.


Peter if you can pull this off, you will be my hero mate :)

Trust me, this is like a Holy Grail moment for me to see come to life.

Cheers!


And the secret formula of the C&C class design is... :shock: :lol:

Seriously though Peter, you did a good job of it in the Companion. Sure it may not be perfect, but I don't think it ever can be.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:13 am

Thanks.

The secret is right in the EXP tables. Well, most of it. There is a method, it just wasn't adhered to all the way.

I took a better look at acquired abilities, and it is mostly follows this:

Standard: 250
Moderate: 500
Excellent: 1,000
Outstanding: 2,000

So basically the cost doubles for each ability rank.

Now for Battlefield Dominance, the reason why it's higher is because it lets you use 3 abilities in the same round. So the author probably gave it the experience penalty for all 3. It still shouldn't be 6,000 tho, 2 of those abilities have a zero cost. Some of the other oddball XP costs get boosted at other levels, so that would explain their higher cost. Unfortunately they don't add up right either.

My method for boosted abilities is to have the XP penalty at the level they get boosted. The official way seems to be all the penalties combined at the level the ability is gained.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:44 pm

Peter wrote:Thanks.

The secret is right in the EXP tables. Well, most of it. There is a method, it just wasn't adhered to all the way.

I took a better look at acquired abilities, and it is mostly follows this:

Standard: 250
Moderate: 500
Excellent: 1,000
Outstanding: 2,000

So basically the cost doubles for each ability rank.

Now for Battlefield Dominance, the reason why it's higher is because it lets you use 3 abilities in the same round. So the author probably gave it the experience penalty for all 3. It still shouldn't be 6,000 tho, 2 of those abilities have a zero cost. Some of the other oddball XP costs get boosted at other levels, so that would explain their higher cost. Unfortunately they don't add up right either.

My method for boosted abilities is to have the XP penalty at the level they get boosted. The official way seems to be all the penalties combined at the level the ability is gained.

You know, a list of class Abilities broken down into Standard, Moderate, Excellent, and Outstanding would be crazy useful (unless that is already covered in the original article and I'm too lazy to look).
I've been thinking about a way to do custom characters, but have been too lazy/swamped to really look into it. If you have a system/design already, I may give it a try for my next game.

R-

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:23 pm

It's already in the article :P

The main section offers a class building method.
Class Reconstruction shows how to rebuild the core classes using that method.
Class Deconstruction attempts to show how the author's of the PHB built the classes.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:37 pm

Peter wrote:It's already in the article :P

The main section offers a class building method.
Class Reconstruction shows how to rebuild the core classes using that method.
Class Deconstruction attempts to show how the author's of the PHB built the classes.

I'll have to look into it.

R-

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:18 am

I must confess a little sadness that this is allowed and mine is forbidden. Oh well.

Guess NDAs are useful sometimes.

Re: Crusader Companion: Experience Tables & Class Creation H

Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:11 am

Wasn't the point of your NDA was because they planned to publish the method? Castle Keeper's Guide? Adventurer's Backpack? Seeing as those books have came and gone with no method, they obviously no longer have any interest in publishing it. Maybe the Trolls can drop it so we can compare notes.
Post a reply