Racial/Size HD?

[KaiserKris]

One thing I have been contemplating is having racial/size-based HD. This is what my first thoughts lean towards ...

Tiny and Smaller: d3 hp per hit dice
Small: d4 hp per hit dice
Medium (regular): d6 per hit dice
Medium (bigger/tougher): d8 per hit dice
Large: d10 per hit dice
Huge: d12 per hit dice
Gargantuan and Bigger: d20 per hit dice

If this is what would happen, certain classes would probably get an adjustment to HP.

Clerics and other d8 classes: +1 to HP
The d10 Classes: +2 to HP
Barbarians: +3 to HP

What do people think? Contemplating putting in an AC bonus and a bonus to stealth/hiding-type Dex checks for small creatures.

[Treebore]

It can definitely work, and I definitely like the bonus' mitigation of minimal die rolls. Such as the infamous 5th level fighter with 9 HP.

[Buttmonkey]

I think your proposals would work fine, although it's too fiddly to make it worth it for me. If you really want to give PCs a bonus to hit points based on hit die size, why not give it to the monsters as well? A poor giant with a measly 9 hit points is at least as unfair as a 5th level fighter with 9 hit points. (Assuming you actually roll for monster hit points.)

[KaiserKris]

I think your proposals would work fine, although it's too fiddly to make it worth it for me. If you really want to give PCs a bonus to hit points based on hit die size, why not give it to the monsters as well? A poor giant with a measly 9 hit points is at least as unfair as a 5th level fighter with 9 hit points. (Assuming you actually roll for monster hit points.)

I usually give monsters at least half their maximum HD in hit points, and not infrequently give tougher monsters a +1 or +2 bonus per hit die. No ogre, let alone giant, that my players will ever see will have 9 HP.

The PC bonus to hit points for certain classes comes from the assumption that people who belong to those classes are going to typically be tougher than an average member of that race.

[KaiserKris]

Size Modifiers
Tiny and Smaller: Tiny creatures have a hit dice of d3. They get a +2 bonus to armour class and +4 bonus to Dexterity checks related to hiding and moving silently.
Small: Small creatures have a hit dice of d4. They get a +1 bonus to armour class and a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks related to hiding and moving silently.
Medium: Medium creatures have a hit dice of either d6 or d8, depending on race. They have no bonuses to armour class or Dexterity checks.
Large: Large creatures have a hit dice of d10.
Huge: Huge creatures have a hit dice of d12.
Gargantuan and Bigger: Gargantuan and bigger creatures have a hit dice of d20.

Hit Point Bonuses
Exceptionally tough monsters may receive a bonus to each hit dice, usually of +1 or +2.
Some player character classes get a bonus to each hit dice. Clerics, druids and the like gain a +1 bonus to each hit dice. Fighters, paladins, rangers and the like gain a +2 bonus to each hit dice. Barbarians and the like gain a +3 bonus to each hit dice.
Player characters with high Constitution scores receive bonuses to each hit dice as per usual, though they roll for full hit points at each level up to level 20.*

*= You've seen some of the high-level monsters my players might end up facing. They'll need those hit points.

[Treebore]

Oh yeah! When 2E D&D came out I most certainly was not one of the game masters claiming the monsters were now too tough, I thought they were finally tough enough!

[Go0gleplex]

It really is not the monsters that are the issue. It is that most, not all, but most GM's seldom ever run the monsters to their actual potential or halfway intelligently. If they did, it would not be uncommon for mid level parties to be TPK'd by 1 or 2 HD monsters. This from experience.

As to the proposal, if you wish to use something that fiddly (as Bmonkey phrased it) more power to you. I can see several ways it could go south on you however and skew things badly. There are many reasons to have things like 9 hp Ogres....could be it is already wounded from in-group fighting for dominance or running into a ranger or such while out hunting as off the cuff examples. You also make the creatures far more predictable (or cookie cutter as you would) by creating what amounts to 'fixed' hid points. I tried something similar with my group back in the early 90's and it crashed and burned spectacularly. I wish you better luck with your attempts.

[KaiserKris]

It really is not the monsters that are the issue. It is that most, not all, but most GM's seldom ever run the monsters to their actual potential or halfway intelligently. If they did, it would not be uncommon for mid level parties to be TPK'd by 1 or 2 HD monsters. This from experience.

As to the proposal, if you wish to use something that fiddly (as Bmonkey phrased it) more power to you. I can see several ways it could go south on you however and skew things badly. There are many reasons to have things like 9 hp Ogres....could be it is already wounded from in-group fighting for dominance or running into a ranger or such while out hunting as off the cuff examples. You also make the creatures far more predictable (or cookie cutter as you would) by creating what amounts to 'fixed' hid points. I tried something similar with my group back in the early 90's and it crashed and burned spectacularly. I wish you better luck with your attempts.

Maybe I'm weird in that I don't think of it as that fiddly?

"Never ever" was probably too strong wording on my part- there's a time and a place for what you describe, which is essentially, a wounded creature. But half of the given hit dice is usually a fairly low number of hit points. Raising HD is not a great thing to do in C&C because it also boosts saves and such.

More often than not, the surprise comes when the "ordinary" monster has surprise class abilities. It's pretty typical for groups of regular monsters like orcs and such to have shamans and leaders with special abilities. Some of the monsters, like hobgoblins, also have a wide diversity of gear and mounts that creates different challenges, even if they're usually pretty similar in HP.

[Captain_K]

Write up a nice bit on this and send it to me in word.. it will go well my my class by race.

Thoughts, is HD based on MASS or Height?

I would suggest the first HD or so be based on body mass, but after that, its based on experience and that should be mass and race independent.. just my take on what the heck a h.p. might be...

[KaiserKris]

Presumably on body mass and all-around 'toughness'. Assuming that HD represents some combination of stamina and endurance.

So you think that, at least for PCs, that only the first HD should be based on race/size? That makes sense.

[Captain_K]

IMHO and my attempt for years to explain how a dagger cut does d4 points of damage and could never kill a 10th level fighter, but a first level mage could be in trouble... hit points are not "mass" and "toughness".. its more like skill not getting cut or seriously damaged. Thus I'm in agreement that it take more effort to crush and elephant than an ant.. but a dwarf has more mass (and toughness) than a human, yet in CnC they are "small".. see body mass and height and movement in the latest Domesday. Since everyone (OK, most everyone) does max h.p. at first level, how about a racial HD at first level and a class HD added to that (I know I've heard that before). Then again at say 3rd level you get your second and final racial HD. You keep the class HD as they are and add in some racial HD. Personally, I think folks need to balance the smaller less massive races with some sort of bonus, harder to hit because they're a smaller target (+2 to AC would balance the loss of h.p.).

[Fizz]

IMHO and my attempt for years to explain how a dagger cut does d4 points of damage and could never kill a 10th level fighter, but a first level mage could be in trouble... hit points are not "mass" and "toughness".. its more like skill not getting cut or seriously damaged.

The only way i've been able to justify it is by treating hit points as combat points, and that they only apply to combat situations. That they are more a measure of stamina, than actual physical harm. And in that case, if a 10th level fighter was held motionless, or otherwise not in a situation where he could use his fighting ability, got stabbed in the heart, neck, head, etc. then he's dead, no matter how many hit points he has.

-Fizz

[Peter]

This is the way I do it for Monsters as Races.

HD is by class but is adjusted depending on the monsters size. For each size larger than medium the monster receives 1 dice higher for each size larger than medium. If the die would be above a d12, than instead add a d4 per die higher. Likewise, the monster receives 1 dice lower for each size below small. The die can never be below 1d2.

[Rigon]

I've toyed with doing Hit Dice by race. Something like d6 for halflings and gnomes, d8 for elves, half-elves, and humans, d10 for dwarves and half-orcs.

R-

[serleran]

I have never used the size of the monster to affect the class HD as size is a factor in the HD the race gets anyway, to some degree. Instead, what I have done is if the class HD exceeds the race HD, they get the difference as a HP bonus for each level. For example a kobold with d8 becomes a monk with d12. The kobold gets +4 HP every level. But... and this is the case for all of them, they use d6. So that same kobold gets 1d6+4 which is not bad but slightly worse than a normal playable race could get.

If, however, the class HD is lower than race HD, they take a penalty on HP equal to half the difference. So a kobold magic-user with d8 race and d4 class gets d6-2.

Constitution adjustments apply if desired or used.

Or rather, I have thought of that before.

[Fizz]

I have never used the size of the monster to affect the class HD as size is a factor in the HD the race gets anyway, to some degree. Instead, what I have done is if the class HD exceeds the race HD, they get the difference as a HP bonus for each level. For example a kobold with d8 becomes a monk with d12. The kobold gets +4 HP every level. But... and this is the case for all of them, they use d6. So that same kobold gets 1d6+4 which is not bad but slightly worse than a normal playable race could get.

If i am understanding this correctly, then this is actually better than the default. A d12 gives an average of 6.5 per level, but a 1d6+4 is an average of 7.5.

If, however, the class HD is lower than race HD, they take a penalty on HP equal to half the difference. So a kobold magic-user with d8 race and d4 class gets d6-2.

A d4 gives an average of 2.5 per level. Whereas a d6-2 is an average of 1.5. So in this case, it hurts the character.

Or am i misreading how your rule works?


-Fizz

[serleran]

It is intended to work that way. It facilitates that brutes with higher racial HD should go for classes with higher HD and those with weak HD should also go for fighter types... few monsters are fit for magic-use.

I understand most would not agree, but it can easily be altered.