Kickstarters

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T1Hound
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Kickstarters

Post by T1Hound »

They have to start getting better.
  • -The Dictionary is running late (from January to November now).
    -Three Sisters is just finishing so there may be a package coming this week.
    -The enthusiasm for Victorious has faded. The gaming group isn't really interested in it anymore (it's a year late).
It's rough going up against 5E. It has a lot of bling and glam right now.

The errors in the books has been bad. I've had 2 players picking up the Rune Lore book and found errors. It's a hard sell to go with this system with errors. I have players who were looking forward to the books and purchased only to look confused at the book itself.

The Trolls being great guys - it is wearing thin against all other items.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Can't defend that!

However you have had the Victorious PDF for a couple of months now. I take it your like me and don't like learning an RPG from a PDF? You should be literally getting the books any day now.

As for your group, if they are willing to be the DM, play 5E. Its worth giving a try. If your the DM, they are going to play what you want to run. You should never run a game you don't want to run, it just makes for a bad game.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

Typos happen in any print product. I've found novels from Baen, Tor, and other "big" publishers that have typos.

That said, TLG does need to work on that. I know working with Trav has caught some of the more obvious ones in Victorious. But I'll tell you right now it won't be perfect. Some typos always slip through, and the best that can be done is to double-down on editing.

However, if people are going to give up on a game because there are typos...well, they probably weren't that interested in the game to begin with. <shrug>

Just IMO,

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, in college I had text books I paid HUNDREDS of dollars for that had typo's and blatant mistakes in it. No one is immune to mistakes, not even WOTC/Hasbro, or Paizo. Paizo even missed a whole chapter once. I think Mongoose did too.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Go0gleplex »

Some of the edits will occur simply due to reliance on technology. I've personally seen a couple files that were error free go to the typesetter and come out with autocorrect BS occurring because the typesetters did a final check and did not correct their computer correcting incorrectly. (say that five times fast. lol)
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Go0gleplex wrote:Some of the edits will occur simply due to reliance on technology. I've personally seen a couple files that were error free go to the typesetter and come out with autocorrect BS occurring because the typesetters did a final check and did not correct their computer correcting incorrectly. (say that five times fast. lol)

WOTC has typically had tons of errata. How long did 4E get between all their books? 100+ pages? Or was that 3E? I have no idea how 5E has been. I only played it for 5 months, and never looked for errata.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

Hey Guys -

I just put a note out on G+ about this...probably shoul've checked here first. Whoops.

I got a reply about the Three Sisters stuff (we're still waiting, apparently).

What about the Aihrde? I haven't received the Inzae book or the PG to Aihrde. I think that's all I got left to get from that.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by moriarty777 »

Crap! I just posted a reply and it got timed-out when I submitted.

<sigh>

Believe me when I say it was insightful but I'm done with that now. ;)

Suffice to say that I've backed every single Kickstarter they have done and they ALWAYS deliver. Some take a bit longer than others but they've been good about it. I mean, they could have just waited to get EVERYTHING together before shipping something out. Take the Three Sisters for example. We all have our books and have had them for some time. The slipcase and other things missing are being sent to us now-ish. That's money they are paying to ship out again and I think that, given the delays that they didn't expect themselves, that in itself shows that they have their priorities sorted well enough for me to keep on backing their kickstarters. ;)

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Rigon »

Lord Dynel wrote:Hey Guys -

I just put a note out on G+ about this...probably shoul've checked here first. Whoops.

I got a reply about the Three Sisters stuff (we're still waiting, apparently).

What about the Aihrde? I haven't received the Inzae book or the PG to Aihrde. I think that's all I got left to get from that.
LD, I'm surprised you didn't get the Inzae and PGtA. I got mine last week, Wednesday I think, so they are shipping.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Omote »

I was told at the TLG booth at GenCon that all of the shipments still haven't gone out yet due to GenCon prep, and as I understand it all of the KS pieces being put together. For example, if you only got a few items with your PGtA order, than your shipment probably already went out. If you were a higher-level supporter, and had lots of different items with your pledge, your KS hasn't exactly shipped to you yet. I am still waiting for mine and was stated it hadn't gone out yet.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

Thanks for your replies, all. They have delivered on all the ones I've supported, true. These two (Aihrde and Three Sisters) seem to be taking a while to wrap up.

Aihrde was the last one I backed, to be honest. I'm still on the fence (at this late hour) about Abyss Walker. I'd done everything before it, with the exception of the AA KS. I felt like they were doing too much, too fast and I think it started catching up with them around the Aihrde KS. But that's my perception, and doesn't necessarily reflect reality! :) I guess I just miss the standard old release methodology of "Hey, here's our new product!" Call me nostalgic.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

I'm quite certain TLG will deliver on the kickstarters I've backed with them. I would prefer it if they would cut way back on the stretch rewards. The stretch rewards always seem to bog down completion/delivery (that is not a problem unique to TLG). I was really excited by stretch rewards when I first started backing RPG kickstarters. Now, I just want the core products I back.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

There's pros and cons. I never worry about a TLG kickstarter as far as will it be delivered. However, a big question is always when it will be delivered. Kickstarter is a fantastic way for the Trolls to put out product without big financial risk. I do wish more projects were a bit farther along in the development phase when they run the Kickstarter. Then again, I've never even investigated how long it takes to bring a print project from conception to completion.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Kersus »

I did at least four of their KSs and it still feels weird that they started more before finishing previous ones. They do seem to always eventually deliver however order fulfillment has always been problematic.

Have they fixed the typos from 1st printing of the PH or are the ones in the 6th printing the same? I have put off sitting them side by side this time.

All in all, good folk. Everyone wants to be pleased differently. Myself, I would have preferred to wait until they completed the whole KS and gotten everything at once, especially all the PDFs on the USB key instead of just the core books. It would have been easier than dealing with OBS. That though is just me and I know full well I'm in the minority. I'm glad TLG is doing well. :)
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

Kersus wrote:Have they fixed the typos from 1st printing of the PH or are the ones in the 6th printing the same? I have put off sitting them side by side this time.
There have been massive improvements to the text since the first printing. While I have no doubt there are typos in the 6th printing (there will always be typos), I seriously doubt the 1st printing typos are still around. The 6th printing is really clean. Most, if not all, of the old errata has been stomped out. It's a really solid product. I personally don't like the color interior, but that's a minority opinion. The rules themselves are in the best shape they've ever been.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

Buttmonkey wrote:The rules themselves are in the best shape they've ever been.
I did my best. :D

Mind you, I believe the game in total is in the best shape it's ever been. On the boards here throughout the years we've shined a major spotlight on the PHB, since it's the one book out of the three sisters that everyone uses. That's perfectly reasonable, but honestly very little love was given to the other two books. Monsters & Treasure did have some work done prior to my getting a hold of it, but it desperately needed a cleanup. The CKG had never seen a red pen.

My editing copies of all three books are filled to the gills with red lines, blue lines, comments, and even rule changes. Despite all the markup in the books, the fundamental rules of the game didn't change. That doesn't mean the game is written in stone, because things do change. Spell Resistance is the poster child of this, with SR1 being defined as "entitled to a saving throw" and Spell Resistance items applying positive (or negative) modifiers to the base Spell Resistance.

The text cleanup and revision still would have happened. The Trolls however used the opportunity to push for full color books, after learning what worked and what didn't with the 5th printing PHB, thus the Kickstarter. The Kickstarters all serve a valuable purpose, and in the case of the Castles & Crusades one, it served not only to raise the profile of the game, but the company as a whole. We've all come a long way since 2003, and the game has come along with us.

Has it been 13 years already? Where did the time go?

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Kickstarters and editing is what drove me off. I am sick of kickstarters. I have forked over a lot of money for them. 3 sisters and Airhde still not completed, still waiting for the stretch goals and add on stuff. I have the books with all of their editing errors ad missing charts. Not impressed.

Every kickstarter update also includes news on the next kickstarter...ugh. :cry:

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

Snoring Rock wrote:Kickstarters and editing is what drove me off. I am sick of kickstarters. I have forked over a lot of money for them. 3 sisters and Airhde still not completed, still waiting for the stretch goals and add on stuff. I have the books with all of their editing errors ad missing charts. Not impressed.

Every kickstarter update also includes news on the next kickstarter...ugh. :cry:
Your wait may be finally over...or near so. I got a ring at the door this very afternoon. Lo and behold, a box from Steve Chenault! Inside were my remaining stretch goals for both Aihrde and the Three Sisters.

But I do understand your frustration. I know the Trolls probably make more money through KS than normal release, so its a safer bet going the KS route. And I'm probably in the minority when I say I prefer normal releases over paying for a KS, and waiting. There's lots of goodies, and the Trolls always deliver. But I miss the regualr releases, and the KS craze gets a little...tiring...after a while.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

Like it or not, Kickstarters are the best way for second and third tier companies to put out product.

On the one hand, its great to know you have a direct input on the production of a given product. For example, Brimstone & the Borderlands didn't make, so TLG saved the effort of putting it out and watching sales kill it.

On the other hand, I do think we see less innovative product. Products that a creator and company decide are going to be awesome, and put it out there despite possible conventional wisdom to the contrary. Think about it, if the original D&D had been a KS, it probably would never have made. It sold something like 1k copies in a year? How many other products fit that bill?

I don't have a problem with companies who do KS and then the deadline goes by. So long as they keep in touch with me and let me know regularly what the progress is (and there is any), I'm ok with that. I think Tunnels & Trolls deluxe was somewhere along the lines of 3 years late. But FBI kept in touch with everyone (around 105 updates), and I for one appreciated that.

I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

<!@#$ double post!>
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

DMMike wrote:Like it or not, Kickstarters are the best way for second and third tier companies to put out product.

On the one hand, its great to know you have a direct input on the production of a given product. For example, Brimstone & the Borderlands didn't make, so TLG saved the effort of putting it out and watching sales kill it.

On the other hand, I do think we see less innovative product. Products that a creator and company decide are going to be awesome, and put it out there despite possible conventional wisdom to the contrary. Think about it, if the original D&D had been a KS, it probably would never have made. It sold something like 1k copies in a year? How many other products fit that bill?

I don't have a problem with companies who do KS and then the deadline goes by. So long as they keep in touch with me and let me know regularly what the progress is (and there is any), I'm ok with that. I think Tunnels & Trolls deluxe was somewhere along the lines of 3 years late. But FBI kept in touch with everyone (around 105 updates), and I for one appreciated that.

I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Mike, I don't disagree with you on the pros and cons of Kickstarter. I have a problem with, what I feel, is the deviation of the original intent of it; allowing great ideas by startups and entrepreneurs to get funding - funding they wouldn't otherwise secure. They showcase their product/idea and if its worthy, then they'll most likely achieve the funding to make it happen. I think that's awesome. But there's a lot of bigger companies that I get the impression that are just "peddling their wares" - going the KS route to fund something ahead of time. That makes me wonder...why? Is it done because they need the money ahead of time? Is there a lack of confidence in their own product?

In the end, if a product needs to go the Kickstarter route to see the light of day, then I'm all for it. Fundamentally, I'm a gamer and more games is usually a good thing. I just feel that there's been a paradigm shift with Kickstarter that makes its original intent ironically null - big companies get tons of funding and unknowns and little guys go unfunded. KS could become the game store shelf of the 21st century, where the big company products get all the attention. When companies have put out products the traditional ways for years, decades, and then decide to go the Kickstarter route, it makes me question their motives.

These are my opinions only, and I'm not trying to pick a fight...honest! :oops: I've got a love/hate relationship with Kickstarter at the moment, one I'm trying to reconcile.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

Lord Dynel wrote:In the end, if a product needs to go the Kickstarter route to see the light of day, then I'm all for it. Fundamentally, I'm a gamer and more games is usually a good thing. I just feel that there's been a paradigm shift with Kickstarter that makes its original intent ironically null - big companies get tons of funding and unknowns and little guys go unfunded. KS could become the game store shelf of the 21st century, where the big company products get all the attention. When companies have put out products the traditional ways for years, decades, and then decide to go the Kickstarter route, it makes me question their motives.

These are my opinions only, and I'm not trying to pick a fight...honest! :oops: I've got a love/hate relationship with Kickstarter at the moment, one I'm trying to reconcile.
Oh, I don't think you're wrong. I see it like this. If you run a small game company (and let's face it unless you are WOTC or Paizo you're a small game co.) you have 2 options in the current market.

1. Talk up your product, put it together, and put it out there. Hopefully people will buy enough to make it profitable; or at least break even.

Or...

2. You can do a Kickstarter, and get the money "up front". This guarantees you've at least broke even, and maybe even make a profit. If it doesn't make, well at least you don't have a garage full of copies of a game you can't give away.

If I ran a small game company, I'd go with KS even if I wish we could go back to the halceon days of advertisements and preorders. ;)

Personally, I can't see that most RPG companies, the ones who still print product, have much of a choice. Of course, pdf only product is a whole different shebang! :D

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:Kickstarters and editing is what drove me off. I am sick of kickstarters. I have forked over a lot of money for them. 3 sisters and Airhde still not completed, still waiting for the stretch goals and add on stuff. I have the books with all of their editing errors ad missing charts. Not impressed.

Every kickstarter update also includes news on the next kickstarter...ugh. :cry:
Your wait may be finally over...or near so. I got a ring at the door this very afternoon. Lo and behold, a box from Steve Chenault! Inside were my remaining stretch goals for both Aihrde and the Three Sisters.

But I do understand your frustration. I know the Trolls probably make more money through KS than normal release, so its a safer bet going the KS route. And I'm probably in the minority when I say I prefer normal releases over paying for a KS, and waiting. There's lots of goodies, and the Trolls always deliver. But I miss the regualr releases, and the KS craze gets a little...tiring...after a while.
Well, that brings up another frustration I have. I have gone all in on KS's. They cost $50-$100. Then the print run happens and the books sell for $39.99 but then 1 month later I see them on sale for $29.99 or even $19.99. I feel kind of taken advantage of at that point, then of course the stretch goal stuff rolls out about 6 months to 2 years later. It just serves as a reminder...

But I have learned my lesson. It is my own fault for going back time after time.

I disagree that KS is the only successful way to market. Maybe in some cases. But I think having several running at the same time (while past ones are still unfulfilled) and all back to back is off-the-hook out there.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Lord Dynel »

DMMike wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote:In the end, if a product needs to go the Kickstarter route to see the light of day, then I'm all for it. Fundamentally, I'm a gamer and more games is usually a good thing. I just feel that there's been a paradigm shift with Kickstarter that makes its original intent ironically null - big companies get tons of funding and unknowns and little guys go unfunded. KS could become the game store shelf of the 21st century, where the big company products get all the attention. When companies have put out products the traditional ways for years, decades, and then decide to go the Kickstarter route, it makes me question their motives.

These are my opinions only, and I'm not trying to pick a fight...honest! :oops: I've got a love/hate relationship with Kickstarter at the moment, one I'm trying to reconcile.
Oh, I don't think you're wrong. I see it like this. If you run a small game company (and let's face it unless you are WOTC or Paizo you're a small game co.) you have 2 options in the current market.

1. Talk up your product, put it together, and put it out there. Hopefully people will buy enough to make it profitable; or at least break even.

Or...

2. You can do a Kickstarter, and get the money "up front". This guarantees you've at least broke even, and maybe even make a profit. If it doesn't make, well at least you don't have a garage full of copies of a game you can't give away.

If I ran a small game company, I'd go with KS even if I wish we could go back to the halceon days of advertisements and preorders. ;)

Personally, I can't see that most RPG companies, the ones who still print product, have much of a choice. Of course, pdf only product is a whole different shebang! :D

Mike
I don't know about this, Mike. I do agree with you on the point that it most definitely seems that KS is the way to go these days.

Reaper, Chaosium, Frog God Games, Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Troll Lord Games, White Wolf/Onyx Path...these companies were putting out product for years the "old fashioned way" - when the market was much worse than it is now (that could be anecdotal, as I'm sure it's been up and down in the past). Advertising and marketing is so much easier now a days than it used to be, with the Internet and social media. Now, I'll concede that there's always been a much less margin of error with the traditional method of publication and delivery. But if you had a good product, and you could advertise and sell it well, it didn't seem to be a problem.

As I said upthread, and I'll elaborate a bit more, there's a paradigm shift (and not a good one, in my humble opinion) that seems to have gone from "Hey, RPG fans, we've put a lot of money and effort into [insert RPG product here], and we think you'll like it, so please buy it," to "Hey RPG fans, we want to put a lot of effort and money into [insert RPG product here] but we would like you to pay for it first. If it's not 'funded' then you don't get it."

Again, I'm trying to be antagonistic. If I am coming across as such, please accept my apology! :)
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

Snoring Rock wrote:Well, that brings up another frustration I have. I have gone all in on KS's. They cost $50-$100. Then the print run happens and the books sell for $39.99 but then 1 month later I see them on sale for $29.99 or even $19.99. I feel kind of taken advantage of at that point.
I feel your pain. What I have to remind myself is that the Kickstarter isn't about the best price. It's about funding a product to a point that it's viable for the trolls to release it. If we're lucky and it gets enough support it can be a better looking book (in color) and usually the stretch goals and bonus rewards help make the initial payment more like a sale price.
Snoring Rock wrote:I disagree that KS is the only successful way to market.
I don't know that the trolls consider it marketing as much as they do about limiting financial risk. As stated above, they are a small company. It's much harder for them to eat a loss (perhaps impossible? I don't know their financials) if they were to produce a product and it bombed.
Snoring Rock wrote:But I think having several running at the same time (while past ones are still unfulfilled) and all back to back is off-the-hook out there.
Considering what I stated above, I don't find it so far out there. If they want to produce more than one product per year, and all of the above holds true, then running a Kickstarter a quarter or more isn't out of the question. I know you are frustrated. I am not saying you are not entitled to that. It's your money and your opinion! But, I am saying I at least, think these may be the reasons it's done like this. It's not perfect. I have my gripes as outlined above. But if Kickstarter gets new supplements in my hand more assuredly than the more traditional publishing method, I am all for it.

As a disclaimer, I have only backed the Aihrde Campaign Setting KS. It's been the only one I could afford and really wanted badly. Having said that, I also got in on the pre-order for it, which was well before the KS even launched, so it was a long wait indeed. The extras went to some of my players.
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Tom Moldvay
Nov. 5, 1948 – March 9, 2007
B/X, B4, X2 - You were D&D to me

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Harlock wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:Well, that brings up another frustration I have. I have gone all in on KS's. They cost $50-$100. Then the print run happens and the books sell for $39.99 but then 1 month later I see them on sale for $29.99 or even $19.99. I feel kind of taken advantage of at that point.
I feel your pain. What I have to remind myself is that the Kickstarter isn't about the best price. It's about funding a product to a point that it's viable for the trolls to release it. If we're lucky and it gets enough support it can be a better looking book (in color) and usually the stretch goals and bonus rewards help make the initial payment more like a sale price.
Snoring Rock wrote:I disagree that KS is the only successful way to market.
I don't know that the trolls consider it marketing as much as they do about limiting financial risk. As stated above, they are a small company. It's much harder for them to eat a loss (perhaps impossible? I don't know their financials) if they were to produce a product and it bombed.
Snoring Rock wrote:But I think having several running at the same time (while past ones are still unfulfilled) and all back to back is off-the-hook out there.

Ok let me back up and put it this way; I think that if you are going to run multiple KS's overlapping and back to back, that you would be considered a bit more credible and honest if you deliver the completed ones within time frame you originally set. Running 2 years out is not acceptable if you start another one. That time used for the next one should be used for finishing the previous one. KS is for getting a product off the ground, it should be written and ready for serious production and in need of funding BEFORE KS starts. I am still waiting on all kinds of bits that to date, are just words. My money was happily banked however.

I will add that it really steamed me to walk into the TLG booth at GenCon two weeks ago to see the add on adventures offered as stretch goals in the KS that I paid for, that I still have not yet received, on the shelf for sale. People not involved in the KS, who will pay much less that I did, have received the product before I did. That is BS!

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Buttmonkey
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Harlock
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Harlock »

Snoring Rock wrote:Ok let me back up and put it this way; I think that if you are going to run multiple KS's overlapping and back to back, that you would be considered a bit more credible and honest if you deliver the completed ones within time frame you originally set. Running 2 years out is not acceptable if you start another one. That time used for the next one should be used for finishing the previous one. KS is for getting a product off the ground, it should be written and ready for serious production and in need of funding BEFORE KS starts. I am still waiting on all kinds of bits that to date, are just words. My money was happily banked however.

I will add that it really steamed me to walk into the TLG booth at GenCon two weeks ago to see the add on adventures offered as stretch goals in the KS that I paid for, that I still have not yet received, on the shelf for sale. People not involved in the KS, who will pay much less that I did, have received the product before I did. That is BS!
Yip. I said much the same thing previously in the thread. Not about availability at GenCon. I don't get to go to Cons.
~~~~~R.I.P~~~~~
Tom Moldvay
Nov. 5, 1948 – March 9, 2007
B/X, B4, X2 - You were D&D to me

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Snoring Rock »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
DMMike wrote: I would actually prefer a product to be late if it will mean better editing and art. But that's just me. ;)

Mike
Being late with TLG on a kickstarter, does in no way improve the product or produce better editing or art. You need only open any of the 3 sisters or Aihrde to know this. TLG and editing are not two things that go together well. We all know this.
I think this part is unfair. The 6th printing PHB is very well-edited. I haven't really looked through the latest M&T or CKG printings to get a feel for editing problems, but I think the PHB at least is in very good shape at this point.
Unfair: if 1 out of 3 is considered a good track record? The PHB is much improved, I agree. I will even go as far as the M&T being improved a lot; but still meh, but I have looked through them a great deal. Have you opened the CKG? Same old errors, and messed up encumbrance tables as well as missing data on a magic item chart and a missing chart altogether. Unfair? All of which were pointed out before the print. Messy. Careless. If you are fair when you do read through them, then you will see what I mean.

Have you opened Celtarum? How about Aihrde? Book of Familiars? Rune Lore? The editing there is awful. Yeah, I get it, I was a fan-boy once too and could not, would not see it. I did not want to see it. I was part of all of those kickstarters as well. Waiting did not improve them.

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