Listen checks

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Kayolan
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Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

Should listen checks be tied to Wisdom? What about having it be a Constitution check instead?

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Go0gleplex
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Go0gleplex »

Con is a physical based attribute/stat. Listen is a perception keyed skill, generally attributed to more of a mental state. Trying to tie the two together is like mixing apples and oranges and expecting to come up with grey poupon.
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Kayolan
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

Go0gleplex wrote:Con is a physical based attribute/stat. Listen is a perception keyed skill, generally attributed to more of a mental state. Trying to tie the two together is like mixing apples and oranges and expecting to come up with grey poupon.
But isn't the ability to listen a function of the body as well? Should a dog have to make a Listen check at Wisdom non-prime?

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Kayolan
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

I noticed that in the CKG, on Table 7.5 animals get a +10 to Listen checks.

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Kayolan
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

And then there is this, on page 133 of the first printing of the CKG, under Listening Underground: "The listen check is generally a constitution check rolled on the table below; if successful, the character hears some type of sound."

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Re: Listen checks

Post by Go0gleplex »

Looking at Attributes as they are typically defined across RPG Systems:

Constitution aka Stamina, Endurance, Vitality, ...
A measure of how sturdy a character is. Constitution often influences hit points, resistances for special types of damage (poisons, illness, heat etc.) and fatigue.

Perception aka Alertness, Awareness, Cautiousness, ...
A measure of a character's openness to their surroundings. Perception controls the chance to detect vital clues, traps, or hiding enemies, and might influence combat sequence, or the accuracy of ranged attacks. Perception-type attributes are more common in more modern games. Note that this skill is usually understood only to apply to what a character can perceive with their established senses (ie sight, sound, smell, etc), and does not usually include extrasensory perception or other forms of mental telepathy or telekinesis in the given game unless the character's specific attributes expressly include such abilities (such as the force in Star Wars). Sometimes combined with wisdom.

Wisdom aka Spirit, Wits, Psyche, Sense, ...
A measure of a character's common sense and/or spirituality. Wisdom often controls a character's ability to cast certain spells, communicate to mystical entities, or discern other characters' motives or feelings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute ... ing_games)


Since C&C has no perception attribute it typically defaults to Wisdom due to it sort of being considered related to sixth sense or just plain common sense to shut up, be quiet a moment, and try to hear what you can hear. Con has NOTHING to do with that...unless your ear is too weak to hear something without assistance. :roll:
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Kayolan
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

Go0gleplex wrote: Since C&C has no perception attribute it typically defaults to Wisdom due to it sort of being considered related to sixth sense or just plain common sense to shut up, be quiet a moment, and try to hear what you can hear. Con has NOTHING to do with that...unless your ear is too weak to hear something without assistance. :roll:

Apparently it's not always wisdom, but the physiology of the listener that can increase his or her chance to hear. The CKG sort of clears that up for me.

A dog will roll against his Con prime, and add 10 to the check... I don't see how the dog's Wis would matter when it comes to hearing capacity.

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Re: Listen checks

Post by Go0gleplex »

Kayolan wrote:
Go0gleplex wrote: Since C&C has no perception attribute it typically defaults to Wisdom due to it sort of being considered related to sixth sense or just plain common sense to shut up, be quiet a moment, and try to hear what you can hear. Con has NOTHING to do with that...unless your ear is too weak to hear something without assistance. :roll:

Apparently it's not always wisdom, but the physiology of the listener that can increase his or her chance to hear. The CKG sort of clears that up for me.

A dog will roll against his Con prime, and add 10 to the check... I don't see how the dog's Wis would matter when it comes to hearing capacity.
Well folks can justify whatever they want to come up with however they want. Sort of like studies. You get the answer you pay for. And with that said, I am done with this particular conversation since I have nothing positive left to say. :|
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Kayolan »

Go0gleplex wrote: Well folks can justify whatever they want to come up with however they want.
I'm just going by common sense and what the CKG offers.

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Re: Listen checks

Post by alcyone »

What I find interesting is that only the Assassin and Rogue can listen anyway, unless the CK allows cross class checks, and only they can add their level.

Even a race that is especially good at listening can't listen unless they are a Rogue or Assassin.
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Rhuvein »

CON for some animals seems very reasonable.

For me, some listen checks are perception checks (which I have in my games) so depending on the situation - I may have players roll INT or WIS.

Other listen checks could be INT only (again a perception check) or WIS only.

I can see allowing certain listen checks to utilize CON . . thinking longer pointy ears for elves, halflings and gnomes.

Good thread for thought on this.

I know many of the online CKs here who I've gamed with have perception checks in their games.

To me, a straight listen check in C&C is too limiting and is ripe for house ruling.

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Re: Listen checks

Post by Captain_K »

Unless you have the skill or ability to listen, then I make it a new stat "perception" when its general "did you notice" something... and not get too specific about it.. seems like some classes should notice stuff or hear stuff before others.. rangers, thieves, assassins, monks, etc.
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Re: Listen checks

Post by Buttmonkey »

If you really want to be serious about it, you need to add a 7th attribute called Perception and tie all perception-based checks to it like listening and maybe detecting traps and illusions. If you don't want to be that hard core about it, just leave it tied to wisdom and move on. As for animals and how CKG rules for dogs inform what happens with PCs, I have always taken the approach that the PHB provides rules for PCs, not monsters. In any event, it seems to me that dogs have great hearing, so if you want to do a SIEGE check to see if a dog hears something, it should be considered a prime check (mental vs. physical really isn't a useful distinction here, so why worry about it, much less whether constitution is prime for a dog which is a monster and therefore doesn't have a specific constitution stat or primeness, but instead has physical, mental, or both for primes).
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Re: Listen checks

Post by old school gamer »

My wife used to do that. She had two extra stats in her AD&D game. Luck and Perception. Worked fine.

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Re: Listen checks

Post by Treebore »

old school gamer wrote:My wife used to do that. She had two extra stats in her AD&D game. Luck and Perception. Worked fine.

Yeah, I used to have a "Perception" score. It was the average of your INT and WIS. Plus I had it be rolled on a D30. I have been tempted many times to go back to using it.

I can also see the rationale behind having animals base their checks on CON, because hearing is very much a physically related ability.

However, with humans, and similar "types", I like using WIS, since its a matter of having the mental discipline to actually pay attention to what your hearing is telling you.
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Re: Listen checks

Post by joneshoward »

I've long since added a seventh Perception stat for listening, looking, and even sixth sense kind of stuff. I toyed with adding Luck as a stat but we've been using Hero Points for years.

Was tempted to try adding a Willpower stat as well, but figure it can either be a character trait or advantage or something that just provides a bonus, or, better, something the character plays. Like for instance, the stubborn Dwarf fighter would have a bonus against influence spells and the flighty bard wouldn't owing to the way I always see the players portraying their characters...
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Re: Listen checks

Post by serleran »

Listen shouldn't be a SIEGE check.

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Re: Listen checks

Post by Lord Dynel »

serleran wrote:Listen shouldn't be a SIEGE check.
I agree with this. If it were tied to a specific ability, then I'd just do a roll under mechanic, similar to the ability checks of old.

As far as perception being tied to constitution, I think it that suits your game then go with it! I agree with animals getting a +10 to their checks, and I agree with CON for animals. They're creatures of instinct (usually, but not always in fantasy rpgs) and I think that CON would be more applicable. I think about how animals respond to various stimuli (a siren, or the poop/urine of another animal) that humans wouldn't think twice about. It makes sense to have sentient beings' perceptions tied to a different attribute.
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